Trades: Tradesmen - non-tradesmen

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by Aixman, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Interested in British war establishments, I wonder what is the precise difference between tradesmen and non-tradesmen, as both seem to call for a military training or instruction, if not special qualification.

    Besides that, with English (obviously ;)) NOT being my native language, I have even some difficulties in finding the exact meaning of some abbreviations, such as "driver, ic" (really hard to find with Google because of the common electrotechnical meaning): Perhaps "internal combustion"?
     
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Hello and welcome to the forum a bit below

    The Establishment listed the numbers of officers and soldiers by ranks and 'skills' in each type of regiment and its batteries. Soldiers were divided into 'Tradesmen' and 'Non-Tradesman'. The former received higher pay and some of the latter were designated as 'specialists'. Some ranks were reserved for tradesmen and non-tradesmen in particular positions, for example a field regiment's 24 gun and 3 signal sergeants. However, most ranks were available as a 'pool' that could be assigned to any individual, although some were reserved for 'repair tradesmen'. Assigning these ranks to individuals was a matter for each regiment. For example a 1944 field regiment had 358 'non-tradesmen' Gunners, of whom 35 could be Lance Bombardiers, although any of the 35 could be assigned to non-repair tradesmen. Similarly with the 63 Bombardiers, of whom 15 could be Lance Sergeants. The 73 repair tradesmen also had 13 NCO positions from Lance Bombardier to Staff Sergeant reserved for them, these are not shown in the diagram above.

    As the war progressed there were changes in soldier trades. The main ones were:
    The OP Assistants, GPO Assistants and CPO Assistants were 'non-tradesmen specialists', they were combined and renamed 'Technical Assistants RA' (TECRA then TARA) in 1944 and became tradesmen.
    The various types of signallers and drivers became either 'driver', 'batman-driver', 'signaller', 'driver-operator' or 'driver-mechanic'. The first three being 'non-tradesmen' and the other two 'tradesmen'
    British Artillery Organisations 1939-45
     
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I wonder what is the precise difference between tradesmen and non-tradesmen


    From a former Tradesman .... Pay :lol:
     
  4. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    *cough* Sorry Trades person ;)
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    If my memory serves me right, when I became a Driver/op Class II I received the extra princely sum of 3 pence per day.

    Ron
     
  6. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    Alright – forum communication seem s to work. I am totally new in this part of the cyberspace.
    First of all, many thanks, especially to CL1 for his information. Some things are already known, but some good new information, too. I understand you as referring to the WE II/190B/1 which I have at hand (Gary Kennedy’s version, and of course the most valuable tons of information provided by Trux). But it is like always: more new questions than answers.
    So we have now at least four groups (in order of their “value”):

    • repair tradesmen
    • non-repair tradesmen
    • specialists (non-tradesmen)
    • “simple” non-tradesmen.
    I always thought, the matter would concern only the rank and file, being corporal/bombardier and below!? (Still much to learn!) You mentioned serjeants tradesmen, too, so I can detect two of them. I can surely follow most of your data mentioned, but I fail to detect the 73 repair tradesmen, even calculating with the numbers of the single trades mentioned there. The WE doesn’t tell anything about the difference between repair and non-repair, except for their existence in the notes, so this must be regulated elsewhere (like the ranks of a quartermaster, medical officer, RSM or RQMS). But where????? I surely would give something to get the opportunity and time to get access to British sources like Kew. L
    Having served myself long after WW2 in a dual role and being qualified, too, as something you perhaps would call a clerk (administration and qualifying of personnel), I am very well accustomed to our own system of pay and ranks/appointments, that allows even the direct comparison between a soldier and a civil servant (e.g. policemen, teachers, government, and even county or town personnel, all having kind of a “rank” or “appointment” directly comparable to military ranks). Every appointment depends at least on qualifying, being first of all passing a certain test, and besides, waiting a certain time, both being regulated. But of course, I myself served with corporals and even sergeants recruits during basic training, they being qualified by a civil professional training and test and even professional experience after their apprenticeship (e.g.: mechanist, cook).
    So, by the way, what is about attached personnel? Is a cook, ACC, a tradesman?
    Could anybody tell me, please, how much (perhaps in per cent?) was the difference in money? Would a lance-corporal tradesman have “looked down to” a corporal non-tradesman (or even specialist), regarding the pay?


    Sorry, Ron, I just read your account. 3 pence per day according to which basic pay?
     
  7. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    aixman

    I was conscripted in Oct 1942.

    I seem to remember that basic pay was then 14 shillings per week.

    Perhaps others can confirm ?

    Ron
     
  8. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    aixman

    I was conscripted in Oct 1942.

    I seem to remember that basic pay was then 14 shillings per week.

    Perhaps others can confirm ?

    Ron

    Ron, so I understand 12,5 % or one eighth on top for a ... non-tradesmen!? Simple or specialist???
    :):mad:

    More interesting: How did you qualify for that extra pay? Military training or civil experience?

    By the way: Regarding your personal history, you might have met my father (not really), being at the same time in North Africa.
     
  9. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Airman
    12 week course at Whitby in Yorkshire that taught me to drive and operate the 19 set in equal measure.
    Ron
     
  10. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

  11. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    The publication we need to find an accessible copy of is - Royal Warrant for pay and promotion 1940 (or subsequent dates) - I have found it on several sites but not one I can access - yet!



    I did not say there were 3,000 trained cooks. I said 3,000 cooks had passed out of this training centre. (Hansard) Whilst looking for the publication I found this - good food well spoiled?
     
  12. 51highland

    51highland Very Senior Member

    aixman

    I was conscripted in Oct 1942.

    I seem to remember that basic pay was then 14 shillings per week.

    Perhaps others can confirm ?

    Ron

    Did not go up with inflation Ron, Dad got 14 bob (70 pence) a week in Jan 1940. Mind you, you did get bed and board too. Minus barrack room damages, (chuckle)
     
  13. pensioner1938

    pensioner1938 Member

    If my memory serves me right, when I became a Driver/op Class II I received the extra princely sum of 3 pence per day.

    Ron

    I presented my self at the guardroom of the 5th RTR regiment at Catterick in 1958. Welcome to the Army the sergeant said with a smile on his face. I thought to myself, what a nice chap, little did I know.

    Anyway after 6 weeks square bashing and bull I went on 2 weeks leave. When I returned to the regiment I was informed that I would be trained as a Centurion Tank driver. I had at that time never driven anything never mind a Tank. The Officer, a Captain marched us down to the Tank Park for a look at a Centurion Tank. We all looked at the beast and thought, no way are we going to learn how to drive that thing, but we all did. I became a B3 tank driver that was my trade, a Tank driver. I went on to become a B1 Tank driving instructor.

    Like Ron I also learnt another trade, I was a driver/ gunner.
     
  14. Aixman

    Aixman War Establishment addict Patron

    I learnt much about that matter.
    I always wondered how one could be motivated while not being promoted below NCO ranks. Other armies like the German or Italian might promote their soldiers for their skill and experience or duration of service.

    Thanks again!
    Aixman
     

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