Today 87 years ago, it all started

Discussion in 'The Third Reich' started by Lindele, Mar 5, 2020.

  1. Lindele

    Lindele formerly HA96

    in 1933 The Reichstag voted for the NSDAP achieving 43.9% (majority).
    Ithink, this thread is also meant as an answer to another recent thread.

    Stefan.
     
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  2. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    It started 101 years ago when a group of German Army officers began planning a German rearmament and subsequently dispersing arms development to Spain,Sweden and the new USSR. Hitlers mob merely inherited this and continued with it - the Weimar government had already been planning for the next war.
     
  3. idler

    idler GeneralList

    102 years ago we failed to finish it...
     
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  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    it began a 131 years ago
     
  5. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    Ah the Issac Azimov theory. he reckoned that if an armistice had been refused and in 1919 Allied round the clock bombing by the new HP four engined heavy bombers and the twin engined long range Vickers Vimy had begun as planned and Mk VIII tanks had rumbled through the rubble of German cities then the German Army would not have been able to promulgate the myth of not having been defeated but "stabbed in the back" by civilians. However if the British and French governments had not grabbed the offer of a cessation of hostilities there would have been revolution in London and Paris
     
  6. idler

    idler GeneralList

    No - all my own work!

    Can't say I'm up on the politics of the home front but predicating plans on the French not revolting might be considered a bit optimistic. What was London's response to our subsequent support of the White Russians?
     
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  7. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    The British and French public were in danger of becoming war weary as were their soldiers. There was a major attempt to gauge the feeling of the BEF in 1918 by getting the censors to analyse their letters. The results were largely that the majority still believed in the justness of the war, had confidence in their leaders, blaming the disasters on the politicians and still thought it winnable. But they wanted it won and over and if it became known that the said politicians had stood in the way there was likely to be trouble.
    Whilst there were patches of Britain that had sympathy with the Reds (like "the Red Clyde" and the short lived Limerick Soviet) there doesn't seem to have been that much general support for them. Most post war outbreaks of disorder like the burning down of the Luton town hall were due to local grievances like the slowness of the de-mob process. Supporting the anti Bolsheviks seems to have been treated with the same degree of enthusiasm or lack as did many Imperial side shows like the Iraqi revolt, the Mad Mullah etc. Part of the running costs of the World's largest empire. The troubles in Ireland engaged more people's attention
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  8. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    Been cutting your hair again?
     
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  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    I blame the French.


    You must be really annoying if your neighbour wants to invade you 3 times in 70 years.
     
  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    and once in reverse
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2020
  12. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Some might say that the German/French conflict started when Napoleon took Germany on his route to Russia and after Bismarck's unification of the German states in 1871.Bismarck made Prussia the dominant state and with Prussian and Bavarian strength he was able to defeat the French in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870-1 and seize Alsace Lorraine after over 200 years of French ownership.

    Then to the military order in Europe at the conclusion of the Great War. In the autumn 1918,when the Germans were seeking an armistice ."Black Jack"Pershing was advocating an Allied drive on to Berlin to achieve a total defeat of Germany rather depending on an armistice to gain peace.Foch, after the Paris peace talks having seen his proposal that the Rhineland should be spilt from Germany as an independent state rejected proclaimed, "This is not peace.It is an armistice for 20 years."

    Regarding the final acts of the war,from October 1918, the Independent Air Force element (five squadrons) having been formed in June 1918 and a forerunner of Bomber Command were on standby to bomb Berlin from Xaffevillers and Roville aux Chenes airfields in Eastern France using HP 0/400 aircraft while at Bircham Newton,No 166 Squadron had three HP V 1500 aircraft on standby also to bomb Berlin should the armistice negotiations go sour...a bomber that had been designed as a strategic weapon to hit continental long range targets with an aircraft range of 1300 miles.

    As far as the armistice went,Germany was held under naval blockage until the Treaty of Versailles was signed on 28 June 1919...signed by the German democratic leadership,the military leadership fleeing from Germany with a lack of moral courage evident.

    The British presence in Russia as an aid for White Russians to resist the Bolshevik revolution resulted in Stalin always being suspicious of the Allies foreign policy during WW2.I would not think the British public would show much concern either way,the main point being that the war to end all wars was over.
     
  13. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    [
    Napoleon did not take Germany - as a political entity it did not exist at the time. He defeated Prussia and some of her Germanic allies but France was also allied to some of Prussia's Germanic enemies. Franco Prussian confrontation goes back well before Napoleon
     
  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

  15. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member


    Note,you have read that I stated Bismarck forged the unification of the individual German states in 1871."Germany" was used in the context of the territory...did you wish to see the names of the states and duchies that formed Bismarck's Germany?

    Now look at another example of the use of "Germany " as a territory...how far are we looking back ..Ah In 1214,it is recorded the Battle of Bouvines...the first clash of French and "German" armies.Then between 1493-1519..the Habsburgs were elected emperor on an hereditary basis,and the House of Austria becomes the strongest political force in "Germany." ....examples from reputable sources.

    Now I 'm sure that you can respond with your understanding of the history of the Franco-"German" clashes.
     
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  16. Robert-w

    Robert-w Well-Known Member

    Irrelevant - you are conflating Germany as a region and or a culture with Germany as a country
     
  17. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    I think you have to go back further than that.It was the vision of Kaiser Wilhelm 11 who was drawn into the Dreadnought capital ship building programme to challenge the might of the RN on the high seas.It's purpose was the intimidation of Great Britain and to complement the German colonial policy ...territories that were ultimately lost at Versailles.

    The First German Navy Law proposed in 1898, a high seas fleet of 19 capital warships by the addition of 7 new battleships.Then followed the Second German Navy Law passed in 1900 which decreed a doubling of naval strength to 38 battleships.

    Versailles did not prevent the German navy from expanding,the motivation for naval strength still persisted and rearmament progressed without any direct response from the members of the League of Nations.Circumventing the Treaty by building in excess of the 10000 ton limitation went without challenge resulting in the so called pocket battleships.The US had rejected the Versailles Treaty and as Russia (never invited to the Versailles peace talks) were not a member of the League of Nations. Hitler's nationalism was merely the conduit for the continued vision of Wilhelm 11 to raise Germany to a supreme world power.

    Despite this, as during the Great War,the Second World War brought about another sea blockade of Germany....one of the dimensions contributing to its defeat.
     
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  18. AB64

    AB64 Senior Member

    I thought it started 132 years ago when Alois was feeling randy and Klara didn't have a headache - if only he'd kept it in his pants how different things would be
     
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  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    :lol: thats something that I could say about some people I come into contact with:lol:

    TD
     
  20. TriciaF

    TriciaF Junior Member

    It could have started even earlier - Back in the 1800s when there was a surge of nationalism in Europe eg Garibaldi and the unification of Italy. Where there are still some fascists, though they never went as far as in Germany.
    Then Bismark followed with the unification of Germany. The shame of WW1, and the theory of Nordicism which was adopted by German fascists.
    Croatia too, a puppet state of Italy and Germany in WW2, I believe their camps were among the most inhuman.
     
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