... (title deleted by Stolpi)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by stolpi, Jul 1, 2012.

  1. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    A search on Geoff’s Search Engine reveals fifteen killed, including one Officer, Lt. JA Reed.

    001 BURT AD 14415425 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 CLAYTON CA 5346877 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    003 COGGAN E 1726337 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    004 CURLEY RF 6026069 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    005 ELWOOD H 4542228 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    006 FARROW RJ 5780216 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    007 HOWELLS RWJ 1635613 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    008 JOHNSON JG 3765035 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    009 O'BRIEN TC 14443992 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    010 PARKER HRV 14720776 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    011 SLADE GJB 5497144 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    012 STEELE AE 5496678 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    013 VENTHAM BL 5497546 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    014 WILLIAMS R 5961519 1ST BN 04/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT

    001 REED JA 243043 ATTD 1ST BN 04/10/1944 ROYAL NORFOLK REGIMENT

    The dead included one DCM and one MM: Sgt R Curley won his DCM in a hard defensive action at La Senaudiere on 13 June 1944. Sgt G Slade won his MM on D-Day; according to the battalion history he was "...killed when his section overran its objective."

    In addition, I am aware that L/Sgt C Clayton was an MiD but I have no further details.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  2. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  3. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The War Diary of the 1st Hampshires gives a total number of 37 men casualties for 5 October 1944. These, without doubt, include the caualties sustained on October 4th, since for that day no casualties are listed.

    The 37 casualties will include these two men:

    001 BREWER NC 14720851 1ST BN 05/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 MASON HJE 14725048 1ST BN 05/10/1944 HAMPSHIRE REGIMENT
     
  4. reddevils

    reddevils Junior Member

    Thanl You for your PM...My company were very active in Holland. And left to many good friends at the beautiful Overloon war cemetery. The company at the time was in the vicinity of Moook opposite the Reichwald. Near Grave. Heumen. area Linden....

    I wnet over Nijmegen Bridge soon after it was taken.......I dont know how long?
    Anything particular you need to know? then ask, and I will try to answer
    Cheers
    sapper

    My dad Billy Hill was a medic he went over in a glider he was awarded the Oak leaf and was mentioned in despatches
     
  5. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  6. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    ...Steve, I wonder if you could give the losses suffered by the battalion from 2 - 5 Oct 1944 on a day-to-day basis.

    A search on Geoff’s Search Engine reveals the following killed between 2 and 5 October 1944 (each day shown separately) including one Officer, Lt. OD Johnson MC.

    001 ARCHER G 4459289 2ND BN 02/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 BROWN ALJ 6296601 2ND BN 02/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    003 DODSON E 14321884 2ND BN 02/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT

    001 ANSBRIDGE F 882321 2ND BN 03/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 PITMAN LEA 5619824 2ND BN 03/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    003 PURSER JJ 14552338 2ND BN 03/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    004 WILLIAMS SV 5623172 2ND BN 03/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT

    001 JOHNSON OD 292012 ATTD 2ND BN 03/10/1944 ROYAL ARTILLERY

    001 CAWLEY GW 4036334 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 CRAGE G 14693760 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    003 HOYLES AH 14231629 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    004 LARKIN AS 14701130 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    005 LASHBROOK AF 5628772 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    006 MOON WB 6967614 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    007 PENNY WHG 14646639 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    008 PHILLIPS WE 5616694 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    009 SANDERS R 14334919 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    010 STEADMAN DG 14433291 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    011 TULK WJ 14684283 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    012 WINFIELD DH 5625225 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT

    001 KNALL J 4921969 2ND BN 05/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 WALKER A 14579377 2ND BN 05/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT

    The dead included one MC and one MM: Lt OD Johnson MC and Sgt S Williams MM – no further information on these awards at present.
     
  7. Sean Field

    Sean Field Junior Member

    Dear Stolpi and others, As previously mentioned, my Dad, Private John Field, was in the 1st Hampshires, D Coy during the Battle for Bemmel. He is now 88 years old and has forgotten much but is then at times he can be very clear about some details. When they crossed the bridge there was considerable activity as it was being secured with anti-aircraft guns and more. He can't remember it being shelled at that moment. But in the days thereafter, most likely in that period of 2 - 5 Oct 1944, he remembers they received a battering with repeated shellfire and Spandau fire from the Orchards. He was dug into a slit trench. While he had taken turns on Bren gun duty, at that time he was using his rifle. His last memory of the battle and I quote, 'a blast lifted me up and the next thing I remember was coming too in the ambulance...'. He was hospitalized with a shrapnel wound to the cheek, and sandblast to the face. The cheek wound later turned septic. For your information, he speaks in glowing terms about his superiors at the time: Sergeant Dusty Miller and Lieutenant Dugmore (or it might be Dudmore?). Hope this all helps and thanks for all your detailed assistance.
    Best wishes
    Sean Field
     
    stolpi likes this.
  8. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Dear Stolpi and others, As previously mentioned, my Dad, Private John Field, was in the 1st Hampshires, D Coy during the Battle for Bemmel. He is now 88 years old and has forgotten much but is then at times he can be very clear about some details. When they crossed the bridge there was considerable activity as it was being secured with anti-aircraft guns and more. He can't remember it being shelled at that moment. But in the days thereafter, most likely in that period of 2 - 5 Oct 1944, he remembers they received a battering with repeated shellfire and Spandau fire from the Orchards. He was dug into a slit trench. While he had taken turns on Bren gun duty, at that time he was using his rifle. His last memory of the battle and I quote, 'a blast lifted me up and the next thing I remember was coming too in the ambulance...'. He was hospitalized with a shrapnel wound to the cheek, and sandblast to the face. The cheek wound later turned septic. For your information, he speaks in glowing terms about his superiors at the time: Sergeant Dusty Miller and Lieutenant Dugmore (or it might be Dudmore?). Hope this all helps and thanks for all your detailed assistance.
    Best wishes
    Sean Field

    Hello Sean,

    Lt WR Dugmore is also reported as wounded on 4 October 1944 - Page 243, 'The Royal Hampshire Regiment 1918-1954' (DS Daniell).

    No mention of Dusty Miller.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  9. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    The 2nd Bn Devonshire Regiment deaths for the period 2 to 5 October 1944 per the CWGC are reported at Message # 87.

    These contrast with the 2nd Devons official 'Consolidated Casualty List' (CCL) for Oct 1944' - attached.

    Both the CWGC and the CCL show 'zero' deaths on 1 October 1944 and have the same total deaths [4 Other ranks and 1 Officer] for the 3 October, but otherwise there is a mismatch.

    On the day of the 2nd Devons attack on the Vergert orchards - discussed at Message # 86 - in addition to the 7 deaths indicated on the CCL it also reports 9 men wounded and 11 men missing. I believe the aforementioned mismatch for the 4 October 1944 is explained partly by the fact that the following 3 men have no known grave i.e. they were 3 of the 11 missing men:

    001 CAWLEY GW 4036334 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    002 CRAGE G 14693760 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT
    005 SANDERS R 14334919 2ND BN 04/10/1944 DEVONSHIRE REGIMENT

    -rather their sacrifice is acknowledged on the Groesbeek Memorial. The 7 men on the CCL and the 3 acknowledged at Groesbeek = 10 of the 12 reported by the CGWC for the 4 October. The other two unreported deaths I believe will be men who died of wounds after evacuation i.e. the details were not know to the person drafting the CCL at that time.

    The explanation for the mismatch for the 2 and 5 October, two men in total, I believe will follow similar lines.

    View attachment 93349
     
  10. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  11. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Steve - The bodies of some MIA's might have been recovered and are now listed as KIA.

    Five of the MIA's of 2nd Devons were later presumed KIA. Their names are on the Groesbeek Memorial (Podson 2/10; Pitman 3/10; Cawley, Crage and Sanders all 4/10).

    You were far too quick for me, Pieter. The placing of the attachment on Message # 90 was my first such placement. I therefore posted that first, then wrote up the accompanying narrative and added CWGC information on MIAs, as amendments. :)

    You will see that my conclusion is that some of the mismatch is indeed MIAs, together with some evacuated WIAs.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  12. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    .
     
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  13. pauln

    pauln Junior Member

    Stolpi, I have found this all very interesting. My the grandfather was in the GAD 55th field regt. From their war diary they look to have crossed onto the island on the 24th.They supported the 3rd Irish on the 1st & 2nd & mentions "no break". Major J P Robertson states in his memoirs at the IWM that 11,000 shells had been fired in 3 hrs & that they were located 20 mins from the Nijmegen bridge on the left of the Nijmegen Elst road then left down a farm track covered by orchards. He also tells of everyone's disappointment at not reaching Arnhem. Between the 3rd & 5th they were located at 732688
     
  14. horsapassenger

    horsapassenger Senior Member

    Pieter

    Well done - I enjoy reading this thread - really nice to see the tracings in place on the map, as originally intended.

    John
     
  15. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  16. pauln

    pauln Junior Member

    Stolpi, unfortunately the 55ths diary is not as detailed as the Guards diaries. I took notes from the diary which are - 24/9 - 28/9 Fire plan Haalderen
    - 29/9 Small attack south east of Elst, seen of by V targets
    - 30/9 M & V targets Elst (I also noted Arnhem was mentioned)
    - 1/10 Heavy counter attack north east of Aam, support 3IG (Also cpt Riddell wounded by a shell while on the roof of a house using as OP - Cpt Thorne wounded during spirited action against enemy tanks & infantry first with his tank then when it became bogged, with gunfire - received MC)
    -2/10 counter attack continues, no break
    - 3/10 - 5/10 I have only noted location 732688 for 373 bty (my grandfathers bty) I believe 374 bty were there also or close by & 439 battery were south of the river.

    I hope to see the war diaries again later this year & fill in any gaps if possible but as I said unfortunately they are not as detailed as some. I did find some added info though from Major Robertsons's memoirs at the IWM

    Paul.
     
  17. pauln

    pauln Junior Member

    Stolpi, unfortunately the 55ths diary is not as detailed as the Guards diaries. I took notes from the diary which are - 24/9 - 28/9 Fire plan Haalderen
    - 29/9 Small attack south east of Elst, seen of by V targets
    - 30/9 M & V targets Elst (I also noted Arnhem was mentioned)
    - 1/10 Heavy counter attack north east of Aam, support 3IG (Also cpt Riddell wounded by a shell while on the roof of a house using as OP - Cpt Thorne wounded during spirited action against enemy tanks & infantry first with his tank then when it became bogged, with gunfire - received MC)
    -2/10 counter attack continues, no break
    - 3/10 - 5/10 I have only noted location 732688 for 373 bty (my grandfathers bty) I believe 374 bty were there also or close by & 439 battery were south of the river.

    I hope to see the war diaries again later this year & fill in any gaps if possible but as I said unfortunately they are not as detailed as some. I did find some added info though from Major Robertsons's memoirs at the IWM

    Paul.
     
  18. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    There's a couple of RA Thorne's awarded a MC in NWE - Do you know his first name or initials?
     
  20. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    There's a couple of RA Thorne's awarded a MC in NWE - Do you know his first name or initials?

    This one is Captain D.G. Thorne.

    Best,

    Steve.
     

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