Timing of the Op Plunder crossings

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Chris C, Jun 19, 2022.

  1. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    I was just wondering about the origin of the timing of the 30th and 12th Corps crossings. stolpi mentions that 30th Corps crossed early (by 5 hours) in order to potentially draw the German counter-attack there as opposed to against 12th Corps, which would be the force to meet up with the paratroopers. This is also mentioned in Operation Plunder by Tim Saunders. I'm wondering if this appears in any planning documents or the like?

    I had a short look through what must be an initial planning study (Department of National Defence, Directorate of ... - Héritage and following) in which that element does not appear, saying "there is no reason why the landings could not be simultaneous".
     
  2. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Looking at the 12th Corps Rhine-crossing thread by Trux (Crossing the Rhine.) I am starting to wonder if historians have been trying to project a more complicated explanation than a simple timing issue.

    The key for 12th Corps' timing, as Trux wrote, is that 1st Commando Brigade had to cross first to seize Wesel, and needed full artillery backing. In order to carry out final preparations in the dark, their crossing time was set for 22:00. After that it was not possible for 12th Corps to cross until 02:00, I suppose to give time for ammunition to be brought up though I'm not sure. ("Since the Commando assault would require the full effort of the artillery bombardment the assault by 15 Division could not take place before 0200 and it was desirable that the assault units be established on the far bank by first light at 0600. This assault was timed for 0200 hours.")

    Meanwhile, 30th Corps crossed at roughly the same time as 1st Commando Brigade. Well, one hour earlier, at 21:00 instead of 22:00.

    30th Corps was I think still intended to confront the German troops that were closer to them than 12th Corps, and to prevent them from being launched south at 12th Corps. I'm hoping a contact of mine will be able to photograph the file of 30th Corps planning documents at Library and Archives Canada.

    But relatively speaking, 1st Commando Brigade and 30th Corps arrived at close to the same time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
    stolpi likes this.
  3. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    There was a bit in Tim Saunders' book (Operation Plunder: The British and Canadian Rhine Crossing) which led me to look at Clash by Night by Mills-Roberts about the commando landings, but it seems to have a fruitless effort.

    Saunders clearly quotes from Clash by Night several times. He then gives some points about the commando's plans but I could not find the underlined bit anywhere in Mills-Roberts' book.

    "Fifthly, Mills-Roberts knew that by landing across the muddy flood plan he would be unable to take heavy weapons on the crossing. He believed, however that the German armour would have been drawn away by 51st Highland Division's landing and that they would wish to avoid the risk of fighting in the rubble of an urban area where they were vulnerable."

    Oh well...
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
    stolpi likes this.
  4. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    Chris C likes this.
  5. alberk

    alberk Well-Known Member

    My educated guess: I should think that this is the most unlikely explanation - preparations were so meticulous that I would rule out the idea that ammo was to be carried forward or moved in the dark.
     
  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    That's a good point.
     
    alberk likes this.
  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Unfortunately, while I wish it was 30th Corps war diaries, it's actually 11th Armoured Division's war diaries' for February and March. I'm not blaming you - I think LAC's database says that T-2447 is 30th Corps but sadly it isn't.
     
    stolpi likes this.
  8. Temujin

    Temujin Member

    Oh, sorry I didn’t realize. I tried to look further (into other reels) but even the next one was in fact microfilmed backwards. It is logs logs from the 2nd British Army, but the entire reel has been microfilmed “upside down” so the only way to read it is using a mirror.

    Quality control on the microfilming was terrible……I believed they used “summer students” to do these and you get what you pay for (which is very little)……..but you would have thought they would use an professional archivist to check the work to ensure their getting the best quality of work as they could. I’ve never checked with LAC but I wonder if the originals were destroyed after microfilming??? To free up physical space in the Archives warehouses???
     
  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    It does seem that way, on both counts - as you say, certainly some of the microfilm is all messed up. And also, if you look for some of the microfilm reels you will only find a general archive reference for a whole lot reels, which indicates to me that the originals were destroyed. I could be wrong, though. (Canadian Military Headquarters, London [textual records (some microform)])
     

Share This Page