thomas stanley warwick 1427378 arnhem

But not the 17 pounder which are the guns I feel we are talking about in D and P Troops.....I hope!


From what I can see in the book Glider Pilots At Arnhem D & P troop's went with 17 pounders. As I think you said earlier, 8 Hamilcar's with the guns and men left from Tarrant Rushton.

2 Horsa gliders carried some D & P troops 1 A/L A/Tk Bty, RA from Tarrant Rushton that morning Chalk No's 376, 377 & 379......... No idea how many men that would be though.

I assume the one's that followed in the Horsa's would not jump! Is that right?

 

From what I can see in the book Glider Pilots At Arnhem D & P troop's went with 17 pounders. As I think you said earlier, 8 Hamilcar's with the guns and men left from Tarrant Rushton.

2 Horsa gliders carried some D & P troops 1 A/L A/Tk Bty, RA from Tarrant Rushton that morning Chalk No's 376, 377 & 379......... No idea how many men that would be though.

I assume the one's that followed in the Horsa's would not jump! Is that right?

A Horsa with just men in 'light equipment' mode carried about 28 men.....they had no parachutes and so would not jump..even the pilots didn't get a parachute.....there was a maximum load for a Horsa of about 3 tons (according to the Otway book) and so the load could be a jeep plus two loaded trailers and a certain number of men or any combination up to 3 tons ..it was all planned before the flight and often units used public weighbridges to work it all out.....

 

There is no mention of equipment...Just troops.

So would I be right in assuming that Nadine's uncle would have flown and landed in either a Hamilcar or Horsa glider, rather than having jumped?

 

I think it is fair to say he would have gone by glider to Arnhem.....

 

JJS/AM

According to the ORB and Glider Raid reports for 298 Squadron, which towed Horsa gliders from Tarrant Rushton on 17th September Chalk 377 carried a jeep plus trailer and chalk 379 a jeep plus two trailers as such there would only be a very few troops on board.

John

 

have just read on other website that of the four guns in D troop only one gun made it the others were destroyed on landing? anyone else heard of this?

 

JJS/AM

According to the ORB and Glider Raid reports for 298 Squadron, which towed Horsa gliders from Tarrant Rushton on 17th September Chalk 377 carried a jeep plus trailer and chalk 379 a jeep plus two trailers as such there would only be a very few troops on board.

John

Sorry John,

That should have read 376, 377 & 378 (typo!)

Book reads 376 - 378 - D & P Tp, 1A/L A/Tk Bty, RA

379 - 380 - 3Para Pln, 250 Coy, RASC

No mention of any equipment for any of them! Any way of knowing which is more accurate?

I don't expect that either way it impact's on the issue at hand for Nadine.... In that her uncle probably went by glider.

Regards to all,
Parnel.

 

Nadine

Chalks 318 and 319 both Hamilcars carrying 17 pounders of D troop overturned on landing making the guns unavailable

John

 

have just read on other website that of the four guns in D troop only one gun made it the others were destroyed on landing? anyone else heard of this?


According to the reports by 298 squadron who towed C squadron on the 17th ...

All gliders were seen to land safely........ So assuming this to be true there were at least 8 17 pounders landed that morning alone!

 

Nadine

Chalks 318 and 319 both Hamilcars carrying 17 pounders of D troop overturned on landing making the guns unavailable

John

Sorry (again!) John,

Am I confusing things! Would that have been discovered after the fact then? The reports having been written on their return that morning.

 

JJS

The towing from Tarrant Rushton was shared between 298 and 644 Squadrons. The fact that these two overturned on landing is well documented as it caused the deaths and serious injuries to the glider pilots who were in a very exposed position on top of the glider and crushed by their loads.
A third hamilcar, chalk 323, carrying two bren carriers also overturned on landing, the two glider pilots escaped without serious injury.

John

 

In the last week or so i have read an article by veteran Arnhem Gunner who stated that as he was parachute trained he parachuted into Armhem before joining up with his gun crew. I cant find it again, and I dont remember if he was 1st Anti Tank Battery or 1st Airlanding Light Regt. On this basis it is possible that Stanley Warwick may have dropped into Armhem rather than land by Glider.

Ken patterson, from Maryport in Cumbria was with the 1st Anti Tank Battery, and comments

Their gliders had only about 5 people on board as they had a gun or a jeep on board, so there was a major constraint on space.
SOURCE: BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Patterson from Maryport, Cumbria: an Anti-Tank Gunner at Arnhem

So if Stanley did land by Glider which one ?

Chalk No's 314 to 321 are listed as carrying D & P Troop of the 1st Anti Tank Battery, carrying 8 x 17 Pounders, whilst CN's 376, 377 & 378 are again listed as carrying D & P Troup but no mention of guns (taken from Glider Pilots at Arnhem)

So what about Chalk No 317 flown by Staff Sergeant Geoff Higgins and Staff Sergeant John Bonome. In Glider Pilots from Arnhem he tells how his landed behind the overturning Hamilcars

He also states page 88

John and I had been told to stay with the gun for about 48 hours when we would recieve directions of where to rendevous with the rest of the glider pilots ready to be flown back home.
John Bonome then stated on page 159.
There was no sign of Sergeant Higgins and myself of being relieved, so we remained with the gun crew who where now ordered to proceed towards Arnhem........

Eventually we reached our allocated position on the corner of Hoofdlaan and Utrechtseweg and set up the gun facing West with out Bren gun position on the other side of the road.

Having Dug ourselves in we waited what may befall us. It seemed that we were to defend the divisional headquarters in the hartestein, about 200 yards away.
Page 248 which relates to Saturday 23rd September tells a tale from Geoff Higgins.
Away from the headquarters, staff sergeant Geoff Higgins of 'C' Squadron was still with the gunners he had carried into Arnhem in his hamilcar on the first lift. He and staff Sergeant Bonome had accompanied them since landing, assisting in the operation and defence of their 17-pounder gun. The two glider pilots, the gunners and the powerful gun were now located in a defensive position, on the corner of Hoofdlaan and Itrechtseweg. As the rain and Mortar bombs continued to fall, he reflected on the events of the past few hours:........

Then came our most terrible experience. The mortar fire came closer and this time it was mixed with rather terrifying squeal of 88mm shells some of which seemed to hit the threes above. There was nothing for it but to stay down in ones trench and hope for the best for there was no enemy to engage. For how long this devastation went on I do not know, but as I rember it it seemed like hours. The truck containing the ammunition and all the the other equipment belonging to the gun recieved a direct hot and was soon ablaze. Ammunition was exploding, and it seemed that this must be the end...........

The towing truck was completely burnt out. The first person I wlooked for was John Bonome, my first pilot, but e was not about. Fearing the worse I visited his trench. The other Staff Sergeant had gine and John was face down and quite obviously distressed. I lifted him up and found that he was very confused and obviously had no idea what was happening. As I had previously taken the sergeant to the first aid post I also took John there...........

A returned to the gun site to see one of the gunners helmetless wandering about in the direction of the Hartestein, somewhere in the area where the dear were kept. He was incoherent and when I went towards him yto take his helmet I coud see that he had been wunded. He had been hit on the side of the head and I applied two field dressings and held there as we set out for the Hotel.............

The gunner was almost out of it when we reached the door and was assisted by another soldier. After the gunner had been taken away I sat down in the hallway.

During the short time I was there I saw several wounded and also was aware that not far away a Padre was conducting a burial service for several casualties. I asked a passing Orderly about the lad I had brought in. He said, He died...............

but then i returned to the gun site where I was told by the bombadier that another soldier who was occupying a larger trench with two others had been killed as a result of the blast. The gun had been hit on the shield probably by a 88mm shell. It was fractured and bent.
Now according to my copy of the Arhem ROH, Gnr Warwick was the only member of the battery to be killed on the 23rd, so it is possible that this action was through the night, and the two casualties mentioned are Warwick and Larkin, with Stanley Warwick the lad who was taken to the Hartestien?

My copy of the ROH is an old one so does not include details on the 'Unknowns' but maybe some could look up to see if there is a strong possability amongst them.

NB. Is there a missing men file for the 1st A/Tk Battery ?

 

Englandphil

Your question "NB. Is there a missing men file for the 1st A/Tk Battery ?" - the answer is yes (WO 361/634) but it contains no mention of Gunner Warwick.

John

 

i have had an email from the curator at hartenstein with the information that stans gun was knocked out at hoofdlaan corner utrechtseweg in oosterbeek. also he sent a picture of stans gun with a german looking over it

 

i have had an email from the curator at hartenstein with the information that stans gun was knocked out at hoofdlaan corner utrechtseweg in oosterbeek. also he sent a picture of stans gun with a german looking over it

Can you post it Nadine?

It looks like your getting enough information to piece together your uncles last days..... Very sad I know but wonderful at the same time that your getting this so long after the event.

 

yes maybe things are coming together especially after reading england phils article then finding out where stans gun was ,and it was the same,so maybe that wounded soldier was stan,its very sad as you say ,but its something you start and you really want to find out all you can.i am sorry but i dont know how to post the picture,but i am going to get someone to help me ,then i will post it for you ,

 

england phil,thankyou for the information ,is it taken from a book? if you see my post above it is the same place where stan was with his gunmaybe he was one of them soldiers,he was the only one to have died on the 23rd sept of the gunners there.

 

england phil,the information you have from the pages of where?is it taken from ken patterson ?would like to read more ,because it could be just the information about my uncle stan that may help to understand what happened to him ,thanks

 

In the last week or so i have read an article by veteran Arnhem Gunner who stated that as he was parachute trained he parachuted into Armhem before joining up with his gun crew. I cant find it again, and I dont remember if he was 1st Anti Tank Battery or 1st Airlanding Light Regt. On this basis it is possible that Stanley Warwick may have dropped into Armhem rather than land by Glider.

Ken patterson, from Maryport in Cumbria was with the 1st Anti Tank Battery, and comments

SOURCE: BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Patterson from Maryport, Cumbria: an Anti-Tank Gunner at Arnhem

So if Stanley did land by Glider which one ?

Chalk No's 314 to 321 are listed as carrying D & P Troop of the 1st Anti Tank Battery, carrying 8 x 17 Pounders, whilst CN's 376, 377 & 378 are again listed as carrying D & P Troup but no mention of guns (taken from Glider Pilots at Arnhem)

So what about Chalk No 317 flown by Staff Sergeant Geoff Higgins and Staff Sergeant John Bonome. In Glider Pilots from Arnhem he tells how his landed behind the overturning Hamilcars

He also states page 88

John Bonome then stated on page 159.
Page 248 which relates to Saturday 23rd September tells a tale from Geoff Higgins.
Now according to my copy of the Arhem ROH, Gnr Warwick was the only member of the battery to be killed on the 23rd, so it is possible that this action was through the night, and the two casualties mentioned are Warwick and Larkin, with Stanley Warwick the lad who was taken to the Hartestien?

My copy of the ROH is an old one so does not include details on the 'Unknowns' but maybe some could look up to see if there is a strong possability amongst them.

NB. Is there a missing men file for the 1st A/Tk Battery ?


Nadine the book is Glider Pilots at Arnhem...... Click on the link below

Glider Pilots at Arnhem: Amazon.co.uk: Major M.L. Peters, Luuk Buist: Books

There was a link in Englandphil's post - Did you follow that? if not click below

SOURCE: BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Patterson from Maryport, Cumbria: an Anti-Tank Gunner at Arnhem

BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Patterson from Maryport, Cumbria: an Anti-Tank Gunner at Arnhem

Good luck.

 

thanks for that jjs.you mention ken patterson,i just wandered if anyone knows if he is still with us?as maryport where he is from is near to me,thanks again