4036045 Thomas GAMSBY, 8 Royal Scots: 31/10/1944

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by gamsby, Jul 28, 2014.

  1. Martin Gamsby

    Martin Gamsby Member

    Thanks so much for your help. It appears he was much further South, near Liessel when he was killed. Thought he was at the mouth of the Scheldt.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2018
  2. stolpi

    stolpi Well-Known Member

    The 15th Scottish Division at the time was about to celebrate the Liberation of Tilburg, but then was rushed towards the east, to stem the spoiling attack, launched on 26 Oct 44 by the German XLVII. Panzer Korps, against the US 7th Armored Division in the Peel Marshes to the SW of Eindhoven. Also known as the battle for Meijel.

    The Scottish were facing units of the 15. Pz Grenadier, the 9. Pz Division and German paratrooper units, all under command of the XLVII. Pz Korps of General Von Lüttwitz. Did a BFT in that area last year (see maps below). A terrible battle fought in very difficult terrain under most atrocious weather conditions.

    15 Sc Div 28 Oct 44.jpg 15 Sc Div 29 Oct 44.jpg 15 Sc Div 30 Oct 44.jpg 15 Sc Div 31 Oct 44.jpg

    8 Royal Scots were fighting in the wooded area south-west of Liessel. The Germans (15.Pz Grenadier Div) had taken Liessel and attempted to open the road to Asten by attacking through these woods.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  3. Martin Gamsby

    Martin Gamsby Member

    Brilliant information, thanks so much. I’m compiling a file for my father (Thomas’s son) as a surprise and this will really help
     
  4. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    From

    • The Grenadier Guards in the War of 1939-1945, Vol, 1, Forbes, Pg 160:
    MEIJEL
    Less than twenty-four hours after the liberation of TILBURG the 6th GUARDS TANK BRIGADE and the 15th (SCOTTISH) DIVISION were ordered to return across Holland to the very area they had left a week before. Their premonitions had turned out to be correct: on the other side of the salient, a few miles south of VENRAIJ, in a sector held by the 7th AMERICAN ARMORED DIVISION, the Germans had launched a counter-attack across the Canal de Deurne, captured MEIJEL, and were pressing on, through the Peel, towards the Second Army Headquarters in HELMOND.

    Oct. 29 - 31
    The Brigade were warned to be ready to move early on the morning of the 29th, but in the course of the day reports became graver and by 4 o’clock the SCOTS GUARDS had already started off. Two panzer divisions - the 9th and 15th - were said to be involved in the attack, but American reports, though sensational, were vague, and, in fact, the SCOTS GUARDS saw no sign of the enemy during the day. Second Army Headquarters, however, began to evacuate HELMOND - a move which later had pleasant repercussions for the Brigade. The next day the Americans were withdrawn and the 227th Brigade, with the SCOTS GUARDS in support, took over their positions in front of ASTEN, a small town to the north-west of MEIJEL. While the SCOTS GUARDS kept the Germans pinned here, the GRENADIERS and the COLDSTREAM, who had arrived on the scene on the 29th, moved nearer the Deurne Canal, towards LIESEL [Ed: sic; LIESSEL]. a small village six miles north of MEIJEL, which was as far as the German counter-attack had penetrated.

    It took the GRENADIERS and the COLDSTREAM five days to drive the enemy back down the LIESEL - MEIJEL road, First, they had to retake LIESEL itself, as the Germans had firmly implanted themselves in the village and were extremely loath to leave. With pillboxes manned by infantry surrounding LIESEL, and with heavy mortars and artillery firing from the other side of the canal to protect them, the Germans were able to fight a spirited rearguard action. Thick fog, which reduced the telescope vision of the gunners to often less than a hundred yards, impaired the fighting efficiency of the two Battalions to a large degree, but by 3 o’clock on the 31st LIESEL had fallen.


    • 6th Guards Tank Brigade, Forbes, Pgs 65-67:
    While the SCOTS GUARDS had been taking over the American positions, the GRENADIERS and the COLDSTREAM, who had arrived in the area on the 29th, moved nearer the Deurne Canal and started to push back the enemy advances. The COLDSTREAM with VREEKWIJK-LOON-LEISEL as their main axis attacked south; No. 1 Squadron, with the 9th CAMERONIANS, cleared up enemy machine-gun positions on the left flank and then returned, with the rest of the Battalion, to VREEKWIJK for the night. By mid-day the GRENADIERS, No. 2 Squadron, with the ROYAL SCOTS FUSILIERS [sic; index reads ROYAL SCOTS] and No. 1 Squadron with the GLASGOW HIGHLANDERS, were in action against the Germans at LEISEL [sic; LIESSEL]; local fighting continued throughout the afternoon and evening, and, by nightfall, half of LEISEL had been occupied by the Infantry. There were a number of pill-boxes in the area, manned by German Infantry, and heavy mortars and artillery were being employed from the other side of the Canal. As usual the country was flat, cultivated and intersected with dykes. The latter, however, were on a smaller scale than some which the Brigade had had to contend in other parts of Holland.

    The next day, Oct. 31, telescope visibility was less than a hundred yards but the Brigade continued the attack. The GRENADIERS helped the K.O.S.B.s and the R.S.Fs [sic; R SCOTS] to capture the western half of LEISEL, repelled several small German counter-attacks, and cleared a wooded area slightly to the south of the town. The COLDSTREAM, No. 2 Squadron with the 7th SEAFORTHS and No. 1 with the CAMERONIANS, drove down the main road from the north to capture the eastern side of LEISEL. This they succeeded in doing, but bogs, mines, and German S.P. guns which could operated with great effect from a distance of 2000 yards, caused frequent delays. As they were approaching LEISEL, Major BRIDGE was attacked by one of these S.P. guns which scored a direct hit on his tank. He and his gunner, Sgt. CARTWRIGHT, were badly burnt and both his operator, Sgt. PEARS, and his co-driver, Gdsn. NEIL, were killed. By 3 o’clock in the afternoon LEISEL had been taken, and No. 3 Squadron of the COLDSTREAM was passed through to take the next village to the south, SILOT. During this action the Infantry were being heavily engaged by an enemy S.P. gun at very close range. Lieutenant CRESSWELL, fully aware of the great risk he was taking, drove his tank right out into the open and destroyed the German machine when it was only 50 yards away, thus enabling the advance to continue. The Infantry suffered heavy casualties before SILOT was finally taken. No. 3 Squadron was ordered to go on to HUTTON, the next village, but there was a delay in starting because Divisional Reconnaissance reported that they were being held up by the enemy. However, as the Commanding Officer could see that they were well behind the majority of No. 3’s tanks, he ordered two patrols of his own Reconnaissance troop to move forward. They were held up by a strong enemy position at a bend of the road just before HEITRACK, but with the exception of one which became bogged they were all withdrawn under cover of smoke.

    It was known, the next day, that the area on the Brigade’s left flank up to the Deurne Canal was held by probably three Companies of the enemy, with possibly S.P. guns and a few tanks to support them. Hoping to deal with the enemy force, the COLDSTREAM advanced towards the Canal, but they met very little opposition and it was clear that the enemy was withdrawing.

    After they had advanced approximately eight hundred yards, the mud became so thick that permission was given for the tanks to remain in a static position in support of the Infantry.

    During the whole of this operation enemy mortars were extremely active. Captain SCOTT - the Intelligence Officer of the COLDSTREAM - Lieutenant ROLLERSON and four other ranks of the GRENADIERS, and a number of other ranks of the SCOTS GUARDS, were all wounded by German mortars.


    =====

    From Account: 3rd Tank Bn Scots Guards, Jul 1944 - May 1945

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Martin Gamsby

    Martin Gamsby Member

    I’m amazed at the help I’m getting! Thanks.

    Does anyone know where I can get an account of the 8th Bn Royal Scots movements from their arrival in Normandy (I’m assuming they landed in Normandy) through to October 31st 1944?

    Kind regards

    Martin
     
  6. adbw

    adbw Active Member

    Hi Martin
    Here you go:
    http://www.15thscottishdivisionwardiaries.co.uk/
    Adam
     
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  7. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    Others from 8 R SCOTS who died on same day:

    ANDERSON Lance Corporal 3056383 SAMUEL Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 23 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 13. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    ATTWOOD Private 14499061 MICHAEL PENDRELL Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 18 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 6. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    BROWNE Private 14434549 ROBERT Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 19 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 7. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    CHETHAM Private 14407944 ARTHUR Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 20 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERYII. G. 12. VIEW RECORDRoyal Scots

    DADSWELL Private 4399211 ERNEST WILLIAM Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 27 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 5. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    HARKNESS Private 10662728 ANDREW BAXTER Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 37 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 3. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    HODKIN Private 4616891 JAMES WILLIAM Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 26 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 4. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    LINES Private 4928857 SYDNEY ALFRED Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 20 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 9. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    RIDLEY Private 14687808 RICHARDSON Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 19 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 10. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots

    STEWART Private 14689383 WILLIAM Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 26 NEDERWEERT WAR CEMETERY II. G. 11. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots




    This man's remains were moved from Someren to a different cemetery. Going by the mix of dates and units on the Concentration report, it could be that he was evacuated and died of wounds at a Casualty Clearing Station.

    ADAMS Private 14551879 FRANK WILLIAM Tuesday, October 31, 1944 Age 20 MIERLO WAR CEMETERY V. B. 11. VIEW RECORD Royal Scots
     
  8. fox81

    fox81 Fox81

    Hello we are conducting research with a group of volunteers on all graves in Nederweert. If you happen to have information about people then we might be able to exchange information.

    Regards

    Jermain
     
  9. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi Martin, I was in Leensel/Liessel/Neerkant and Schans this past weekend for the 78th year remembrance with a local historian. Walked in their footsteps - my mum's husband was 6RSF. Those co-ordinates, which you perhaps already know are the Dennendijkse Bos. On 29th 8RS were in reserve at Voordeldonk, east of Asten. 6RSF were in Leensel for an attack on Liessel on 30th. Seeing 6RSF move and as 8RS had not yet filled to gap created by 6RSF moving, the enemy moved west from Slot in an attempt to isolate 6RSF. It entered the bos which I walked in this weekend, and it was a miserable time for our boys. The Germans penetrated the woods and some of the fighting was hand-to-hand. Quiet possibly 8RS moved from its reserve position to help 2nd Glasgow Highlanders defend against this German move which was successful once tanks arrived later on. Both 8RS and the Glasgow Highlanders suffered heavy losses. I am following 6RSF and writing a book from Normandy to Bislich where my mum;s husband was killed but as both units are 44th Lowland they were always close and sometimes my research touch on 8RS. So I pass on a brief note with that background. Best.
     
  10. Mick Thompson

    Mick Thompson Member

    Hi Keith
    Hope your book goes well. I am tracing my Grandads footsteps next year… from Arromanches to Tespe, the 80th anniversary. He was with 11 RTR and took the 15th Scottish on many crossings. He also was involved with 8 RS and 6 RSF with pre river crossing training in HOUTHUIZEN. Do you have any information on this? As I am struggling with the exact location.

    Regards

    Mick
     
  11. Keith Lawler

    Keith Lawler Member

    Hi Mick
    Not sure what time you are talking of but my best guess would be this. 6RSF were designated to spearhead the crossing of the Rhine into Bislich on 24/03/1945. Circa late January or even in the first days of February they were on the move from the Venlo area northwards along the River Maas to their collection point in Nijmegen ready for the advance into Germany on 8 February called Operation Veritable. Houthuizen lies on that route and very near the Maas. Quite likely the boys rehearsed their river crossings there in preparation for the Rhine Crossing (in Buffaloes).The daylight crossings went well but at night or in a heavy fog it was a bit more tricky. One report says that the men set off from the west side of the river in thick fog and after a while reached the opposite bank. Or so they thought. They had landed back on the west side very close to where they set off. So the training was critical.
    Hope that helps but shout if you want any other details.
    Best
    Keith
     

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