This sums it all up, I guess

Entirely agreed!


Empire Soup? Ugh most unpalatable.

 

I like him, he's crazy
I'm crazy about my own country What's wrong with that

Oh, give the man a break, he's even a fan of the Detroit Pistons, God knows why :biggrin:

Detroit Pistons?
That is basketball, correct? Ten people running around in baggy shorts and a wifebeater, bouncing a ball and trying to throw it through a hoop with a net on it?
Never heard of them.

Lol Well, they do suck They've not been doing so well in the past few years, Joe Dumars has been doing 'wonders' with his brilliant trades for Allen Iverson, Ben Wallace etc. I've been rooting for them since 2003. But I play basketball on a semi-pro level, I go to a sports academy here in Moscow, and it's only natural that I'd take interest in the sport Supporting a team that always wins i.e. the Lakers, Celtics or Cavaliers would be too banale. Underdogs rule.

Anyways, back to WWII.

If you withhold information, it does not get noticed.

Well, even if the SU did withhold information, although I really want to disagree with you on that, what was the point of making up stories and presenting them as fact, only to be denounced later on, with the coming of a more 'friendly' Russian government?

If the SU did withhold information, it probably had something to do with nuclear warheads and intelligence rather than WWII history.

Surely if it hadn't been for the Molotov - Von Ribbentrop pact giving him some breathing space, Hitler would never have dared to start the whole damned thing in the first place ?
Stalin wasted no time in invading Poland and was on Nazi Germany's side until things went wrong for him.
It is no reflection on the peoples of the former Soviet Union but the role of their leaders is nothing to be proud of in my opinion.


The pact was a rather naive thing to do from Stalin's point, as the invasion of the SU was going to happen no matter what. It kind of reassured him to an extent, I guess. It wasn't so much as collaborating with the Nazis as getting them to shift the border further away from the capital, as well as reclaiming land lost earlier on in the XX and XIX centuries. Poland was always a troublesome zone, from the time of Ivan the Terrible and the Teutonic Knights Order or whatever they call it (I'm not big on medieval history).

Stalin was a c***.

Well, Stalin's a pretty much separate discussion topic. I'll put it this way : he didn't create as much evil as people consider him to have done, and denouncing him and cursing him never got anybody nowhere. I'm not denying the well-known facts about the GULAGs, repressions, mass starvation in Ukraine, his cult status etc. I'm just saying that you shouldn't be lining him along with Hitler in the annals of history.

 

I understand, but it's got to be so much more than a straight comparison... as Von Poop mentioned a post earlier..

Anyway, when it comes to Stalin I'd rather not debate stuff. Things just go awfully wrong in the discussion of him and his rule So I'll just stay neutral

 

If I'm not mistaken, and I frequently am, Stalin and his cronies felt that war with Nazi Germany was inevitable and they knew in 1939 that the SU wasn't ready for it especially after the drubbing the Red Army took at the hands of the Finnish Army. Prior to the signing of the M-R pact the Soviets were in negotiations with the Brits, oops sorry, British and French with the idea of forming a pact to contain Germany. Everyone knew, the Germans included, that they couldn't embark upon a war on two fronts. These negotiations went nowhere because of a lack of commitment on the part of the British to take them seriously and because of Polish fears of Russia, but we've spoken of this before.

Russia signed the treaty in 1939 to buy time. Stalin was shocked by how quickly the Germans defeated the French and British in 1940 and wanted to do nothing to upset the Germans after the fall of France because he knew he was next.

Concerning comparing Stalin to Hitler as to their responsibility for human tragedy on a titanic scale they are probably pretty close with the only difference that Stalin murdered largely his own citizens whereas Hitler didn't limit himself in that regard.

Back in the old days despots used to be able to get away with murdering people within their own borders but these days the rest of the world will sometimes take offense and intervene, not always though.

 

Anyway, when it comes to Stalin I'd rather not debate stuff. Things just go awfully wrong in the discussion of him and his rule So I'll just stay neutral

Neutral on Stalin? That would be the same as someone saying they would be neutral on Hitler. Six of one, half a dozen of the other. translated.


Murderers on a mass scale are an unique group, they should be grouped together.

 

Tch. Too simplistic. Currently reading The Dictators - Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia, which should cover roughly the same ground as Adam's book (which I'll look up later) and if some results are equivalent, means and paths to get there were totally different.

Same as saying that shrimp and pork are the same thing because neither is kosher.

 

One of the books I have about H & S contains a class photo for each of them at about the same early age. Interestingly or coincidentally both characters occupy more or less the same position in their respective class photos.

 

I never compared him to Hitler in the first place, i just called him a c*** , you're the one who said I was comparing him to Hitler who was actually a w*****.


That's one way to put an historical arguement.

 

I've seen worse!

 

I wasn't concerned with how they got to where they were, nor the various methods by which they accomplished their grisly deeds, only that they were greatly successful in causing abject misery and lingering death to uncountable numbers of people who did not necessarily agree their sociopathic behavior and attitudes.

I use the term "sociopathic" intentionally, as the definition seems to thoroughly fit them both.

 

I'm crazy about my own country What's wrong with that
I'm crazy about my country also, but I don't give a rat's arse about some of the leaders we have had and I seperate the leadership from the country. They are not one in the same, as Stalin and Russia was not one and the same.


Anyways, back to WWII.



Sounds like a plan. I should have let you do that when you first mentioned it, but a eagle puppet was thrown out for discussion and I chose to disccuss. B)

 

I never compared him to Hitler in the first place, i just called him a c*** , you're the one who said I was comparing him to Hitler who was actually a w*****.
C'mon, say what you really mean...:rocker:

 

I understand, but it's got to be so much more than a straight comparison... as Von Poop mentioned a post earlier..

Anyway, when it comes to Stalin I'd rather not debate stuff. Things just go awfully wrong in the discussion of him and his rule So I'll just stay neutral

Hi Comrade,

Welcome and congratulations!

I have lived to see a sensible Russian on this forum. One that understands the meaning of the word "debate", is not continually negative, has a sense of humour, understands or accepts why a despot like Stalin is disliked so intensely and seems to accept that we genuinely respect the efforts of the Russian Military/People during ww2 without whom .................my apologies, I nearly started a "What if"....................

Hopefully that same level of respect is reciprocated for the allies and their efforts, especially those Airmen of the Commonwealth, United States et al who initially opened "The second front", the only means available at the time, by bombing Germany from the air ceaselessly as well as those Naval/Merchant crews who did their utmost to supply Russia with war material in horrendous conditions.

Anyhow, the welcome is genuine.

Cheers

Geoff

 

Murderers on a mass scale are an unique group, they should be grouped together.


I've got to agree with Za Rodinu on that one. Too simply put. I don't think they can be bluntly shoved in the same category without any regard for other factors.
Oh, forget it, never mind, I just don't want to discuss Stalin.
When he's brought up things just start to get really really messy and I get progressively more angry the more he's talked about I might say something wrong and get banned or something so I'll play it safe)

Hi Comrade,

Welcome and congratulations!

I have lived to see a sensible Russian on this forum. One that understands the meaning of the word "debate", is not continually negative, has a sense of humour, understands or accepts why a despot like Stalin is disliked so intensely and seems to accept that we genuinely respect the efforts of the Russian Military/People during ww2 without whom .................my apologies, I nearly started a "What if"....................

Hopefully that same level of respect is reciprocated for the allies and their efforts, especially those Airmen of the Commonwealth, United States et al who initially opened "The second front", the only means available at the time, by bombing Germany from the air ceaselessly as well as those Naval/Merchant crews who did their utmost to supply Russia with war material in horrendous conditions.

Anyhow, the welcome is genuine.

Cheers

Geoff

Cheers for the wecome, Geoff I'm pretty flattered Weren't there any sensible Russians on the forum before?

A goes for the collaboration oft the Allies and the SU, undoubtedly, it is held in high regard even today. The aid that the USA and the British Commonwealth (not to mention other countries) provided was needed dearly, and it was a lifeline of sorts for the whole Union, given their economic situation at the time, especially at the start of the war. Veterans still remember the infamous Willis jeeps (those were absolutely magnificent - superb - ingenious machinery, they're just beautiful ), the planes flown over from the States (they even made a film about that in Russia recently, you should check it out, its called 'Peregon', its about the air crews that were responsible for the transport of the planes to the SU), the food (the canned beef, named 'Tushenka' in the SU, is still recalled by the Soviet vets, and they remember it being considered a delicacy, compared to all of the other provisions they were getting), and all of the other resources provided by the Allies, the Bren carriers, the Shermans, the trucks, the howitzers, all of it The ships that went to Murmansk, the aid to Leningrad, the second front, the meeting on the river Elbe - all of that is remembered with deep admiration by the Russian people.

I never compared him to Hitler in the first place, i just called him a c*** , you're the one who said I was comparing him to Hitler who was actually a w*****.

Whoops Apologies Owen, I got caught up in another discussion. Sorry)

 

That's that Peregon movie I was on about. Here's a screenshot as well.


And I made a mistake, the Tushenka was canned pork, not beef whoops) here's a pic just for laughs)


yummy innit

 

Er....what's the white stuff? Pork fat?