This shocked me

Discussion in 'General' started by andalucia, Nov 2, 2008.

  1. andalucia

    andalucia Senior Member

    This is from a Liverpool forum, i was very saddened to read it :(

    X Factor Hypocrisy

    Having Irish relatives who fought and died in both wars i find it shocking from both sides. will people never let anything go.

    I thought i should post this here to show more intelligent people just how sad a few people can become. This started as a thread about a 16 year old boy on the X factor show wearing a poopy. Im stunned.
     
  2. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Unfortunately its a part of a narrow minded society that will never go away. I used to deal with such people on a day to day basis when I was a copper.

    I'm ashamed to say that I used to be a narrow minded rascist bigot that knew very little about people, their culture, way of life and history until I went to Kosovo. Ever since then I like to think I look at everything with an open mind and as subjectively as I can.

    I like to think my life is much richer now for just taking the time to learn about other people and their way of life that they have the freedom to choose.
     
  3. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    It seems to me that Gerry, the originator of the post has just got something against the Royal British Legion as he feels his mother did not get the support he feels she was due and puts that down to the fact that she was a catholic.

    For a start that is an issue which should have been brought up with the local Branch and I know that the RBL does not, and never has, discriminated on religious grounds.

    Secondly, his argument that the 'Paras' shot dead 14 innocent bystanders on Bloody Sunday is a common one in Southern Ireland and by the Southern Irish, as is the fact that they conveniently forget the hundreds of innocent bystanders killed by INLA and IRA during their indiscriminate bombings and shootings during their 'struggle'. If the shootings really were indiscriminate on Bloody Sunday, it is very strange that those killed were all male between the age of 17 and 41 and one man died a few days later aged 59.

    I find it sad that soldiers were put in a situation where he was armed with a weapon far too powerful for the job and the environment, restricted by unrealistic RoE and threatened by the law if he got it wrong, while at the same time confronted by an enemy that didn't care about collateral casualties, didn't follow any rules of conflict, played both sides of the propaganda coin at every oppotunity and was protected by the legal system when caught.

    Bloody Sunday may or may not have been a tragedy, but who from the IRA is being dragged through the courts over the hundreds of innocent people they killed?

    Gerry is an ill informed individual with a grudge and his comments should be treated as such.
     
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  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Good on 'Kev' for closing it.
    Suspect I would have done at post #1.
    Perhaps as much for mentioning 'X-Factor' as anything else... In fact I'd probably ban for that alone :unsure:.

    Glad to see our own thread relating to Poppies in Ireland remains a more gentlemanly affair.
     
  5. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    Secondly, his argument that the 'Paras' shot dead 14 innocent bystanders on Bloody Sunday is a common one in Southern Ireland


    You can not underestimate the damage this one event did to Anglo-Irish relations. The depth of hatred unleashed is impossible for any Britain to understand. It would be foolish to start picking over the details again but the main problem is those who think all the victims were IRA men and the others who think every one was murdered in cold blood.
    It would be best to say that something went badly wrong that day and to try and ensure it won't happen again. If it is to continue as a slanging match between the 'we are righ and you are wrong' devotees then the wounds will never heal.
     
  6. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    You can not underestimate the damage this one event did to Anglo-Irish relations. The depth of hatred unleashed is impossible for any Britain to understand. It would be foolish to start picking over the details again but the main problem is those who think all the victims were IRA men and the others who think every one was murdered in cold blood.
    It would be best to say that something went badly wrong that day and to try and ensure it won't happen again. If it is to continue as a slanging match between the 'we are righ and you are wrong' devotees then the wounds will never heal.

    This is exactly the point. At the same time that all the convicted terrorists and murderers were being released from prison, regardless of their sentence or how much of it they had served, they start a multi-million pound inquiry into Bloody Sunday, dragging up old feelings on one side while telling the other that they have to forgive 30 years of criminal activity.
     
  7. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    This is exactly the point. At the same time that all the convicted terrorists and murderers were being released from prison, regardless of their sentence or how much of it they had served, they start a multi-million pound inquiry into Bloody Sunday, dragging up old feelings on one side while telling the other that they have to forgive 30 years of criminal activity.

    Again I can only tell you that this one event is deeply etched into the Irish pysche. Perhaps the results of the enquiry can once and for all set out the failures and show exactly what went wrong. That it did go wrong is beyond dispute.
    There have been many accounts written and aired about this day and not all of them reflect well on the troops. There is enough blame to go around and when the enquiry is over then it can all be consigned to the history books. Both sides have given evidence and it beggars belief that it can be claimed the operation to clear the streets was succesful.
    To go forward you have to stop blaming each other.

    dragging up old feelings on one side while telling the other that they have to forgive 30 years of criminal activity.

    The other side could say you have to admit 'you' also were less then candid about your excesses? This tit-for-tat could go on forever and there is no way other than to admit the mistakes and learn from them.
     
  8. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    To go forward you have to stop blaming each other.

    And once again you state that the inquiry is to clear the air so we can stop blaming each other. At a cost of many millions and dragging up the past rather than just 'getting on with our lives'.

    More people innocent people died at the hands of the IRA and I don't see any call for a single inquiry into what went wrong or why they decided to target innocent members of the population. Instead, all of those who were found guilty of murder and lesser crimes were just let go and the families of their victims were told they had no other choice than 'forgive' them.

    If you want to stop 'blame' you should start by treating both sides the same.
     
  9. m kenny

    m kenny Senior Member

    OK thats my lot. I tried to make you understand others see it another way. Continue the war without me................
     
  10. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    OK thats my lot. I tried to make you understand others see it another way. Continue the war without me................

    You are right, you failed to make me understand why one incident requires a fortune to be spent on an inquiry 30 years after the event, while we have to 'forgive and forget' all the horrific and illegal acts the other side has committed before and since then.

    Yep, still can't see it :huh:
     
  11. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I think this is a case of putting the shoe on the other foot if anyone has any possibility in understanding how either side feels.

    At the end of the day N. Ireland is moving on from its past and the troubles in the main as far as I'm aware have stopped so everyone is moving in the right direction albeit slowly and belatedly in my opinion.

    I don't nor will I ever forgive what the Provisional IRA did (the direct effect to me was in London). I'm sure there are people today in Ireland that have the same view of the British insituition but I like to think I understand the reasons why they did what they did but that doesn't mean I agree before anyone bites my head off.

    May all parties continue to work towards a lasting peace in N. Ireland in my book
     
  12. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    And once again you state that the inquiry is to clear the air so we can stop blaming each other. At a cost of many millions and dragging up the past rather than just 'getting on with our lives'.

    More people innocent people died at the hands of the IRA and I don't see any call for a single inquiry into what went wrong or why they decided to target innocent members of the population. Instead, all of those who were found guilty of murder and lesser crimes were just let go and the families of their victims were told they had no other choice than 'forgive' them.

    If you want to stop 'blame' you should start by treating both sides the same.
    Plant pilot, you'll forgive if I come at this from a different viewpoint to yourself, but not much! I would first of all like to point out that I have grown up hating the fact that my country's flag were for years hijacked by the terrorists and you will not find an IRA sympathiser here. However its far too easy to say that the IRA killed more people. There were atrocities committed by both sides and there is no clear right or wrong in the troubles. Both sides have justification to blame the other and in the end the only victims were the innocent people of Northern Ireland. I dont want to get into a conversation about "Bloody Sunday" as I dont know enough about it and dont want to make a judgement that would offend any of our "Norn Iron" members.
     
  13. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Brief note.
    If this one shows any signs of veering too far off the gentlemanly & becoming any sort of overt 'Sectarian' debate like the one Andalucia mentioned (Which it hasn't yet to my eye) then it will mysteriously 'disappear' :unsure:.

    Cheers,
    Adam.
     
  14. plant-pilot

    plant-pilot Senior Member

    However its far too easy to say that the IRA killed more people. There were atrocities committed by both sides and there is no clear right or wrong in the troubles. Both sides have justification to blame the other and in the end the only victims were the innocent people of Northern Ireland.

    I can't agree with you on several points.

    I understand that it is controversial to voice opinions, but I said that the IRA killed more innocent people than the Army for a reason. That reason is that it is true. Their campaign of bombings covers that all on its own. Bombs are indiscriminate by their very nature and that is compounded by their use in public places. Malfunctioning devices, inaccurate timers and lack of or ambiguous warnings meant that they not only killed hundreds of innocent men, women and children, but also some of them were the very people they said they were fighting for. Not just in NI, but in London, Birmingham other cities in the UK.... several places in Germany and they even gunned down two Australians in Holland they mistook for British Soldiers because they were talking in English.

    On the other hand you have soldiers and policemen who have to follow a set RoE, having to make snap decisions knowing that if they do make a mistake they will end up in court. It's easy to fight what you call a war if you ignore all the rules until you are caught then start screaming for your lawyer, which is what the IRA would do.

    I get fed up of the people who think you can just forget 30 plus years of criminal indiscriminate killing while still trying to blame soldiers who were trying to do their job in difficult circumstances, are hung out to dry. "You can forget while we carry on spreading our lies about you". If it's forgive, then from all sides, not just one. Wouldn't that be more fair?
     
  15. James S

    James S Very Senior Member

    Gerry from Donegal does assume that it will make "many an Irishmans skin crawl" , it is his opinion based on his own views.

    It is not the most productive exchange of views you will ever read and again it hangs on perceptions and entrenched thinking.

    Almost everything in NI has a tendency to be potentially "political" Gerry does seem to play poacher and game keeper on the basis of what he deems to be reasonable / unreasonable - granted he has been poked and had his fuse ignited by some folks who take issue with him but the nature of what Gerry says and how he says it does not allow much of a platform for many of the values which the social and political agreements would seem to underpin.

    My eldest girl won't be coming back to live in NI , she made that quite plain to me and I cannot blame her - she has had her fill of the ignorance and pettyminded party politics which people deem to be reasonable and she wants no more of it.

    Gerry's views do without doubt have a mirror image which is equally entrenched and which needs no introduction ,collectively it all represents something of an idiots charter in which the "other" person is judged to be at fault and "my" position is presented as being perfectly "reasonable" and "understandable".

    Having lived with this for 40 plus years I can understand it all but can't "understand it" - if that seems as clear as mud ,the collective mindsets are just so similar but are held to be so different.( And so justified).
    If you want to find fault and seek offense you can do so very easily but when you balance it up why would you want to do so and in this instance what does it serve and what understanding comes from it ?
    ( None that I can see ).
    The best way I can deal with it is to issue a fools pardon and ignore.
    On a lighter note it is only through comedy that "all sides" see how silly they behave.

    YouTube - Give My Head Peace Clip
    In some ways it is a good social comment on life.

    Some folks have mentioned victims within NI , victims there have certainly been from all sections of the community and from the forces sent to serve in NI.
    Nothing in NI was straightforward it was a dirty civil war and it was uncompromising , prior to 1968 I cannot in all honesty say that "NI" was being well run - politically and socially it was a mess and change was necessary.
    This place is not "the same place" it was then , people from all shades of opinion just would not stand for it.
    Yet what I percieve to be in place now seems very like that which was put forward in the 1970's, seems that like in all civil conflicts it had to be founght out - at great cost in terms of life and wasted resources until all concerned realised that it all was little more than a continuious act of self harm which had to be brought to a close.

    Lets not fool ourselves closure will be difficult and it will take time but going back is no longer and option we have all "been there and done that".
    I am not in any way saying that people should forget what took place absolutely not , but it has to be the basis of learning and learning begins with understanding - which brings me back to the post on another forum.
    Was that post / thread based on a process of learning based on understanding , if not what is the sum of its contribution ?

    If anyone is truely interested in what took place here I can recommend a very hard hitting book call "Lost Lives".

    Amazon.co.uk: Lost Lives: The Stories of the Men, Women and Children Who Died Through the Northern Ireland Troubles: David McKittrick, etc.: Books

    It is not meant to be a definate account of "The Troubles" but it does illustrate the waste of it all.
    The "one star review" - my view is that to accomplish the view expressed it is best read alongside other works.
    Whilst this book does inform it overwhelms the reader.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. andalucia

    andalucia Senior Member

    Interesting views.

    I know nothing really of the troubles in Northern Ireland, only what i saw and read in the news. half of my family live in Southern Ireland half in England. I have never seen them as Irish if that makes sense nor do they see me as English. We are just family members who visit each other and have never had any trouble in either country. maybe i am just lucky? maybe politics is not so important with us?

    I am no expert on wars, I come on here to read up on lots of the threads and to find help about my relatives service. I know wars are bad and in my opinion wrong and i remember all the people who died and fought from all sides in both world wars and conflicts since.

    I will wear my poppy and remember the fallen and those that fought and suffered. I will thank god that i do not have to go through that experience and pray that all the service people from all countries stay safe. I know more will die, I just hope for the best.

    I agree that we need to let the past go or nothing will ever change. Im glad i posted this here as it is good to hear peoples views. and all this from a 16 year old boy who wants to be a pop star. Maybe his generation could be the ones to bring people together? probably the TV people asked him to wear a poppy? but hey! its nice to see him with one and if it gets him thinking then brilliant.

    Well i have gone on here lol. probably not making much sense, but this is what i think.

    cheers

    Ant
     
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  17. Charley Fortnum

    Charley Fortnum Dreaming of Red Eagles

    Human justice is very prolix, and yet at times quite mediocre; divine justice is more concise and needs no information from the prosecution, no legal papers, no interrogation of witnesses, but makes the guilty one his own informer and helps him with eternity’s memory.

    Soren Kierkegaard, Eighteen Upbuilding Discourses, Against Cowardliness.

    Ex-British soldiers could reportedly face Bloody Sunday
    murder charges 'within weeks'


    UP TO FOUR former British soldiers could be charged in the coming weeks with the murder of Bloody Sunday marchers, the Telegraph is reporting today.

    Citing sources, the UK paper says that four former paratroopers could be told on 14 March that they are to face murder charges.

    It was previously reported that Northern Ireland’s Public Prosecution Service (PPS) was considering prosecutions on up to 18 soldiers who were involved in the events.


    Article Continues:
    Ex-British soldiers could reportedly face Bloody Sunday murder charges 'within weeks'
    The case for not proceeding with prosecutions is almost unnecessary to express, but in case the obvious is not living up to its billing:

    The Maze prison was almost empty tonight - just 15 inmates were left inside the 800 cells. By the end of the year most will have been released or transferred elsewhere and the top security prison finally shut down.

    The H Blocks emptied in just three hours today as the government freed the last big batch of 78 prisoners under the early release terms of the Good Friday Agreement. A further seven were let out of Maghaberry Prison a few miles away across County Antrim and one from Magilligan Jail in County Londonderry.

    In all, 428 terrorists, including 143 serving life sentences, had been released since the scheme began 22 months ago. Mass killers and bombers, many responsible for the worst atrocities during 30 years of violence in the province, walked free today to be welcomed by cheering supporters.

    Continued:
    Maze emptied as terrorist prisoners walk free

    I sincerely hope this speculation is wide of the mark.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
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  18. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I would just like to point out for the record I am no longer a copper, I save lives for a living now :lol:
     
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