"The Smith Gun"

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Drew5233, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I heard about this for the first time last night on the Antiques Roadshow and one of the experts was talking about it and showing some photographs. I wasn't really that interested until I heard 'Dunkirk' mentioned and started to pay attention.

    From what I can gather because nearly all of the artillery was left in France when the BEF was evacuated some new cheap designs were made and this gun was given to the Home Guard. It was moved by its perminately fixed road wheels and then turned onto its side using one of the wheels as a platform to rotate the gun.

    Apparently it was designed by a toy manufacturer and the I beleive the Antiques Roadshow expert is willing to pay £10,000 for one in resoanbly good nick.

    Some info added below:

    Smith Gun

    Popular Mechanics - Google Books

    [​IMG]
     
  2. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

  4. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Andy/Adam, I saw this too and wondered if it would pop up here!
    Sounds like an ingenious design for a 'stop-gap' weapon, reminds me in a way of the spigot mortar or 'Blacker Bombard' but the Smith gun seems somehow more usable (and certainly more mobile). Interesting to note it could also fire 3" mortar rounds.
    I wonder how stable the mount would have been when in the firing position and how recoil was dealt with?
    As these are now rarities and quite valuable are there any more of these post-Dunkirk inventions we should be looking out for?
     
  5. spotter

    spotter Senior Member

    Thought you might like to see some images of the ammunition for a smith gun,plus a practice round found at work last year
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Fascinating stuff, I found out about their use in the HG unit from Hadley Wood, N London recently. (Initially thinking they had been issued with Blacker Bombards et al) a far more pratical weapon, and certainly a fascinating piece.
     
  7. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    yep saw that very interesting

    designed by a chap from Triang Toys
     
  8. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Far more useful for the Home Guard etc. in that as it could fire 3" mortar rounds it meant the HG could be supplied from the same munitions factories...rather than the parallel production required for the Northover Projector and the Blacker Bombard. The main reasoning behind removing the Northover from service for example was that its incendiary munitions was using up the same chemicals used for 3" smoke mortar rounds and this was leading to shartages in North Africa! :lol: (This was also the reason the Blacker Bombard used the inert concrete practice round...whereas the HG spent lots of time and LOTS of live munitions getting accurate with the Projector!;))

    Personally I prefer the Northover Projector - FAR more "Heath Robinson"! And so apparently did the Home Guard, they objected LOUDLY when their projectors were taken off them!

    As for the RAF Regiment getting Smith Guns - I'm not sure this isn't more a case of them getting whatever "artillery" was already emplaced to protect aerodromes when this was the responsibility of the Home Guard ;) IIRC they also picked up more than a few of the 1940-imported "American 75mm guns" that had devolved to airfield security by that point...
     
  9. chick42-46

    chick42-46 Senior Member

    On the Smith gun and the RAF Regiment, Kingsley Oliver had this to say:

    "As the operational squadrons were deployed in their war roles at home and overseas, the need for more effective armament became even more pressing. The standard British small arms, the No. 4 rifle and the Bren light machine gun, were made available in sufficient quantities to equip personnel in the field squadrons but there was a grave shortage of support weapons. The first of these to be issued to field squadrons in the United Kingdom, the Smith gun, was an improvised smooth-bore weapon which fired modified 3" mortar bombs and was reputed to be more dangerous to its users than to the enemy. Because of that, replacements for it were gratefully received, whatever they were and whenever they became available. These included 75mm howitzers left over from the 1914-18 war, obsolescent 2 pounder anti-tank guns and, for a short while in North Africa, surplus 25 pounder field guns loaned by the Army, which were later replaced by 6 pounder anti-tank guns. Eventually, this motley range of support weapons was superseded solely by the 3" medium mortar which became the standard weapon of support in the field squadrons."

    The RAF Regiment at War 1942-1946, pg 10.

    And he later says, at pg 17:

    “In 1941 the Air Ministry had ordered 2000 Smith guns, instead of the 40mm Bofors gun which, although the preferred choice, were unavailable at that time, even though field trials indicated that light machine guns and .50” anti-tank rifles were more effective than an untried and improvised weapon. The Smith gun was the invention of Major W.H. Smith, the managing director of Trianco Toys, and was intended as a smooth-bore substitute for an artillery piece. It fired a modified 3” mortar bomb against ground targets at ranges of up to 1600 yards, but subsequent attempts to increase this to 3000 yards had to be abandoned due to the excessive recoil and instability which this generated. Production problems with fuzes delayed the introduction of the weapons until 1942, but it was not long before the first fatal accident occurred. During a live firing practice in that year a malfunction caused an explosion which killed Corporal Maynard of 2819 Squadron. Other such incidents soon followed and after a very unsatisfactory operational performance, and a worse safety record, in squadron service, all Smith guns were withdrawn from Regiment units in 1943.”

    Here is a picture from the book of a couple of rather worried-looking gunners.

    Smith gun.jpg

    And here are Cpl Maynard’s details.

    Name:-MAYNARD, CECIL EDWARD
    Initials:-C E
    Nationality:-United Kingdom
    Rank:-Corporal
    Regiment/Service:-Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
    Unit Text:-2819 Sqdn. R.A.F. Regt.
    Age:-34
    Date of Death:-10/12/1942
    Service No:-1308065
    Additional information:-Son of Fredrick and Martha Maynard, of Reading; husband of Violet May Maynard, of Reading.
    Casualty Type:-Commonwealth War Dead
    Grave/Memorial Reference:-Div. 59. Grave 15529.
    Cemetery:-READING CEMETERY
     
  10. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    IIRC one of the major issues in "service" with the Smith Gun was the same as the Blacker Bombard - the firing handle worked on a Bowden cable, like a motorcycle control cable. And as most of the motorcyclists on the board know, "the care and feeding of cables" can be a black art LOL

    It was also flimsy; when towed on anything other than a smooth road it would shake itself to pieces. the solid bicycle tyres on the dished wheels didn't help!

    and how recoil was dealt with?

    Mike - the barrel passed through the tube axle...and was attached to it by large elastic bungees! These were supposed to "help" absorb the recoil...!

    I have to say - I wonder where Oliver got his range figures from? AFAIK the range for the Smith Gun was only @500-600 yards....but effective against armour only up to 300 yards LOL And this would be a lucky shot; David Orr in Duty Without Honour notes that it was only accurate up to 200 yards!
     
  11. Tab

    Tab Senior Member

    It was also featured in Dads Arny on TV
     
  12. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I wonder how stable the mount would have been when in the firing position and how recoil was dealt with?

    When fired off a hard surface, eg a road, the gun, weighted with three sandbags, will jump back about 2 inches and if unweighted about 6 inches. In neither case is the accuracy of the shot be affected. Under all circumstances, however, it will be necessary to re-lay the gun after each shot.
    Home Guard Instruction No. 51: Battlecraft and Battle Drill for the Home Guard: Part IV: The Organization of Home Guard Defence, Nov 1943.
     
  13. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Thanks for that Phil/Idler!
     
  14. wowtank

    wowtank Very Senior Member

    The Smith Gun features in the Dads Army episode We Know Our Onions.:)

    Sorry did not see Tab's post.
     
  15. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    So - the Home Guard had to ideally find transport for the gun, for its limber, for any extra ammunition....AND three sandbags! :huh:

    Were they entitled to extra petrol coupons for all this??? :lol:
     
  16. idler

    idler GeneralList

    I imagine bags of onions could be used in an emergency...
     
  17. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Interesting point Phil, hadn't thought about it until now.
    Did HG troops with suitable transport get extra petrol vouchers for service use?
    Or extra onion rations?
     
  18. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    The only time I EVER heard of the Home Guard getting extra rations of anything was "somehow" they got their hands on extra sugar and petrol for petrol bombs and other Molotov Cocktails in the early summer of 1940 LOL

    That was before they got their hands on official issues like the No.75 Hawkins and No.76 SIP Grenades...or even the "official issue" Molotovs with the glass ampoule of catalyst tied round the neck of the bottle of flammable liquid.

    Oh - and of course the petrol/gas oil mixture issued for flame fougasses :)

    (Were there any instances of people caught trying to run vehicles on that mixture???)
     
  19. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    I can just imagine the instructions:

    In case of invasion alert submit application for extra petrol vouchers to unit commander (in triplicate) and await response.
     
  20. houndog

    houndog Junior Member

    Hi guys,

    As a baby boom child, born just after WW2, I thought I would try to cancel out some of the mis-information circulating as a result of confusion between the names Trianco & Triang.

    Here is a copy of the Email I sent to Bill Harriman at the Antiques Road Show after the programme; it gives some background to to Major Smith wanting to do his bit (again) in the second show against Germany:

    I cannot find you a "Smith" gun BUT I can tell you where not to look.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with "Triang" the manufacturers of toys and in particular model railways and electric racing cars.

    This mistake is perfectly understandable:
    Lines Bros. Makers of Tri-ang Toys - V&A Museum of Childhood

    The owner of a company that almost went completely bust in the 1930's was set up and owned by a (Major) Smith.
    It got involved in the relatively new technologies associated with Portland Cement following WW1, by buying redundant submarine netting and employing teams of workers to unravel it to make concrete reinforcing wire.
    The firm, lead by Smith who was a bundle of creative ideas, went on to develop several patents and registered designs amongst which were machines for making concrete blocks, of which the "breeze" blocks (clinker blocks) are the best know. The inter war years were a time of much suburban construction, which saw the adoption of the "cavity wall"; a way of building house walls using big cheap concrete blocks as the inner leaf and allowing cheaper less skilled bricklayers to create a damp proof wall; the better insulation was almost a side effect. Smith tried to build the whole wall out of triangular blocks so the inside face and the outside face could have different finishes.
    This was not a great success, as British people like brick houses, not concrete or rendered houses Continental style, but the company traded under the name of "Trianco" (as well as "Smith's Fire Proof Floors".)
    Trianco, was eventually quoted on the London Stock Exchange.

    Come the emergency of WW2, Smith managed to offer the engineering skills of his concrete machinery manufacturing business to the war effort by developing the home guard gun.
    It ran on its large wheels and then was tipped on its side to be used in anger, swivelling on its axle and with one wheel acting as its pad and the other offering some protection to its crew.
    How useful it would have been in action I don't know - I heard stories of its demonstration to the top brass being somewhat fixed, in that the crew already knew the direction and range of the target.
    But in the dark days following Dunkirk, it was at least a morale booster.
    The firm continued into the 1970's making mainly airworthy (AID) parts for the RAF, including a screw lift kit that could be assembled on site & powered by a Landrover battery, to lift a heavy object of 16 tons (actually tested to 20 tons) in or out of a cargo plane. (Reputed to have seen service during the Rhodesia UDI emergency of 1965).

    Post WW2, the firm diversified into making boilers, with a gravity feed, to burn the anthracite beans , peas & grains previously regarded as virtually waste, at an efficiency of up to 80%, long before natural gas and the condensing boiler arrived in Britain. The firm held a Royal Warrent from the Late Queen Mother for the supply and care of her central heating boilers.

    Trianco traded from typically 1930's looking factory premises backing onto the river Ember at the rear of Imber Court, the Metropolitan Police training ground, at East Molesey a mile or two South of Hampton Court Palace.

    In the other side of the river at the site of a former water mill Smith enjoyed a house set in landscaped gardens using the river as a water feature.

    Other parts of the former Imber Court estate had been developed as typical inter war suburban homes for commuters using Thames Ditton Station. Some homes were built with the "Trianco" block system.

    Smith died in the 1960's, having served as Chairman of Surrey County Council.

    What he made of of the army of cyclists, from the London overspill council estates established post war in West Molesey, using the registered public highway (foot path) running along side his home to get to his factory, is a matter of conjecture - he certainly did not appreciate me as a 13 year old, buying waders so that I could wade up stream from the public common to fish in "his" part of the river.

    Here is a link to collectors of military ordnance tracking down "Smith" guns.

    Home Guard weapon The Smith Gun & ammo

    Trianco catalogue at builders merchants C 1950

    Seax - Catalogue: D/F 172/8/13 Pamphlet, Trianco Bar Spacer Machine by Trianco Ltd, Engineers, Imber Court, Surrey

    Britain's aircraft industry in 1967:

    1967 | 1812 | Flight Archive

    Best wishes,

    houndog
    (Former "airborne" fitter & management trainee Trianco Plc 1965 - 1969)


    PS The Trianco name lives on in a Sheffield supplier of heating equipment, but I don't know if this is any more than the transfer of a trade mark.
     

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