Bloody hell - imagine being sitting in a glider (Horsa?) with a flame thrower strapped to your back watching AA fire riddling the aircraft. So Newton was one of the many who never made Merville Battery on D-Day. Anyone have any stats for who was tasked with Merville but survived to fight in other areas eg Pegasus Bridge or nearby? I know my Gramp was one of them, but he was injured at the Chateau St Come a day or so before they were taken out of the frontline. I think they had 75 men left standing after the attack on the Battery, so I guess there weren't many who got through the first 6 or so days unscathed.
Lots of great info here, John are you saying in planning for Comet the plan was to actually land gliders on the bridge itself? Sounds highly dodgy even given the undoubted skills of the GPR. Steve W - you provided me with some info re my namesake Lt Michael Long (wounded and prisoner at Arnhem) thanks mate. I did look for a prisoner report from him at TNA but couldn't find one - I know not every POW filled one in - but I found a few interesting pages about Spangenberg camp (Oflag IX A/H) where he was held after capture. I will send it to you if interested. Did Lt Long glide in on D-Day? Interesting to hear there is still doubt about how many 9th Bn men are unaccounted for - 190 sounds incredibly high, even with lost files etc. Mike
Mike Yes, that's what my Father had told me. I quote from Mike Peters/Luuk Buist book "Glider Pilots at Arnhem" (page 35): "At 23:35 hrs on the evening of 5th September, a signal sent from HQ Air Troops (Browning's Airborne Corps HQ) to 21st ARmy Group, read: In view of complete lack of LZs and DZs near bridges after study of maps and photos on my return here consider it essential to land Coup de Main Glider parties on each bridge night 7/8 Sept. Then next bring in first main lift airborne force early daylight 8 Sept otherwise surprise impossible. Must warn you that strong protest against the latter has been lodged with Air C in C and Americans. Please confirm that if protest overruled timings are suitabler." The reply to this signal read "Air C in C has overruled protest" John John
According to my friend SW, 49 reherasals were carried out for the coup de main task in Normandy at the Caen and Orne Canals.......can't say they didn't practise.......
John, having visited Arnhem a couple of times and seen many wartime recon photos I can appreciate the possiblilty of landing Coup de Main gliders on the bridges and nearby wide highways (but given problems of arresting gliders on fields it would be much worse on paved roads - still I suppose well judged sacrifice of wings would slow you down a bit!). Same would apply for any bridge or similar assault. I do find it a bit of a stretch to imagine sufficient troops/equipment surviving the landings to occupy the prime objectives against determined opposition BUT let's not forget there was not supposed to be much opposition in OMG, COMET and the various other airdrop schemes at the time. We famously don't do 'what ifs' on WW2Talk but....... What if 9th and 10th SS weren't around? would have been a whole different story I suspect. Also if Freedy Gough's jeeps had succeded in the rushed to Arnhem bridge would it have made a difference? Not much use against armour but devastating against infantry. Too many imponderables!
Mike I must obviously bow to your superior knowledge. After all my Father was only briefed to participate in this operation and I have repeated what he told me and what is supported by official documentation. What would he know of the capabilities of glider operations - He was a veteran of the Sicily landings and had undertaken numerous glider flights in training and had been participating in trials at Netheravon on the deployment of arrester parachutes (perhaps for this type of operation?) Still if you find it implausible he must have been mistaken!! John
I don't see any reason why it could not have been done. The Germans landed gliders on the roof of a fort in Belgium in 1940 in the dark.
I believe when the Germans attacked in May 1940 they captured Arnhem Bridge by dropping Paratroopers at the bridge site....... no real comparison with 1944 , although you would think with the ground attack capabilities of Allied Airforces in 1944 they could have taken care of any major armoured attack launched by the Germans. Never understood what happened to air support for the operation.... As a kid we used to go to Arnhem every year whilst based over in Holland and later Germany, believe my dad knew a couple of the guys buried there.
John, first I must apologise. I didn’t intend to imply any mistrust of your Father’s training or recollections or your considerable knowledge, far from it. I was trying to express amazement and respect for the sheer audacity of the plan. From what relatively little I know of glider operations I understand that one of the most critical things is sufficiently slowing the glider on landing. I have heard of parachute arrestors and believe these were used on D-Day and other ops. At Eben Emael, using smaller gliders than Horsas, I understand the Germans even wrapped landing skids in barbed wire to increase drag, and all these landings were on grassed surfaces. The problems of slowing a glider on hard surfaces must be considerably greater and I wonder how it was achieved? Presumably training was carried out on hard runways etc, can you advise any of the techniques involved? My comment about sacrificing wings was not meant to be sarcastic, I think it was used as a ‘last resort’ action several times in wooded areas and could equally be applied in built up areas in an emergency. In hindsight my use of phrases such as ‘a bit of a stretch’ was a mistake, it is not quite what I intended to convey. Referring to Arnhem, what I did mean is that such a coup de main attack against what was supposed to be a lightly defended objective could have been spectacularly effective. But as we all now know the objective was not lightly defended. On ops such as Comet the technique could have been very successful. I do hope that clears up any misunderstanding John. As I understand it ‘Comet’, in its final form, was ready to launch on 7th September with Arnhem as its ultimate target but was cancelled. A specific date for arrival for 9th and 10th SS in Arnhem is difficult to find, but orders for their withdrawl from Normandy appear to have been issued on 4th September and their disengagement in Normandy started on 5th/6th September. Elements were in the Arnhem/Oosterbeek area by 14th September (from C. Ryan, A Bridge Too Far) so if Comet had gone ahead on 7th (or shortly after) 1st Airborne outcome could have been very different.
Mike Thanks for the apology and also your PM. My Father described one of the first occasions that he was tasked to deploy an arrester parachute saying that he "did so on the instructions of the Glider Pilot and came to in the detached tail end of the glider with a man in a white coat, with a clipboard, standing over him taking notes". This was at Netheravon and I'm afraid that I don't know whether it was on grass or tarmac runway. The Glider Pilot that I asked about the feasibility of the landing on Arnhem Bridge said that the wings would certainly have been torn off. Their task was to seize the bridge to prevent its destruction. Engineers from 9th Field Company were to accompany them to deal with any demolition charges that were found. The 1st Parachute Brigade was expected to land nearby at about 09:00 hours to take over and hold the bridge until relieved by XXX Corps. Even though the coup de main party was a relatively small force (Company strength at most) my Father remained convinced to his dying day that they could have seized and held it for that period of time. John
Hi All, I'm meeting Alan Kettley tomorrow, when you talk about skill of The Glider Pilots this Veteran's story is even more interesting.. Not only did he fight at Arnhem but also espace the germans and was involved in Pegsus 1 John know's all about this too... Cheers Tom
Tom Please give Alan my best wishes. I spoke with him last week and he's certainly remarkable for his 94 years - Urquhart called for a special report on his escape with Leo Heaps and Tex Banwell after their capture at Arnhem. Tex stayed behind to train the resistance while Alan and Leo Heaps were sent by Gilbert Sadi Kirschen (Captain King) to test the initial escape route that had been established with Jan de Bloois (Piet de Springer). It is interesting to note that following his interview with Alan the IS9 interrogator added a note stating that he considered that he was the leading figure in their escape and downgraded Leo Heaps' escape accordingly. Alan, Leo Heaps and Ron Adams (from 156 Para) were recruited into IS9 and worked with Airey Neave on the Pegasus operations and subsequent exfiltration of Allied soldiers and Airmen through the Biesbosch. A truly remarkable man with many very interesting stories to tell. John
I believe when the Germans attacked in May 1940 they captured Arnhem Bridge by dropping Paratroopers at the bridge site....... no real comparison with 1944 , although you would think with the ground attack capabilities of Allied Airforces in 1944 they could have taken care of any major armoured attack launched by the Germans. Never understood what happened to air support for the operation.... As a kid we used to go to Arnhem every year whilst based over in Holland and later Germany, believe my dad knew a couple of the guys buried there. The Arnhem bridge aswelll as the Oosterbeek railway bridge were blown by the Dutch before the German groundtroops arrived. Ron
What if, what if. On the polderland on the southern side of the bridge it was more than capable of landing a couple of gliders there. There were also numerous sufficient (smaller) fields in the neighbourhood of the bridge. The problem was the expected heavy Flak around the bridge and from Deelen airfield, why the RAF didn't want to fly there. But no use talking what if's, it went as it went.
Apologies if this seems a daft question but what happened to all the Gliders used by 6th Airborne in Normandy? Where they broken up and scrapped or shipped home for reuse or repair?
Hi Jonathan, No in fact there was an Army until that went over and returned with parts that they could reuse... Cheers Tom
If I could mention another feat of glider flying, the raid to free Mussolini should also be mentioned. 9 DFS 230 gliders landed outside the Hotel Gran sasso, A Ski resort Hotel that was located on the side of a mountain in the Apennines. Pretty skillful flying if you ask me!
A sad photograph ...... Held by IWM Collections On Line Airspeed Horsa Gliders awaiting disposal : 11th July, 1945 : Netheravon, Wilts. To find go to IWM Colletions on Line and then search box - fill in two sections of the search page - select Horsa Gliders and under the 'All' section select Photographs - press search button at bottom of page and Image CH 16366 is shown near the end of the first page. I have an instrument dial from a Horsa Glider returned to England by my father after Operation Varsity 24.03.45., presumably carried home in his Kit Bag! Whether this dial was salvaged from his Glider, Chalk No. 153, ... I doubt I shall ever find out ...! Lindsay
