The proposed German invasion of Ireland

Discussion in 'General' started by spidge, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    In World War II, Operation Grün (Green) was the German codename for the decoy invasion of Ireland planned in conjunction with Seelöwe, in 1940.

    Like Herbstreise ("Autumn Journey"), barges were to be sent towards the south coast of Ireland to give the English the impression of a widescale sea invasion of the British Isles. To convince British Intelligence of the plan, German operatives led by Hermann Goertz were parachuted into Ireland to make contact with the Irish Republican Army (I.R.A.) and to initiate a bombing campaign in British-controlled Northern Ireland. This part of the operation was known as Plan Kathleen. The I.R.A. targets would be the British embassy in Dublin, various police and military posts in Northern Ireland and to destabilise the government of Eamon de Valera.

    In final stage of the operation, once the I.R.A. bombing campaign had finished, a 32,000 strong German paratrooper force led by General Kurt Student would parachute into two zones in Northern Ireland. One south of Lisburn to sever the railway and communication lines between Belfast and Dublin and to destroy the RAF airbase at Long Kesh, while the second to land north of Belfast and capture the RAF airfields at Nutts Corner, Aldergrove, and Langford Lodge. The Luftwaffe would then be able to strike targets in Scotland and the west coast of England.
    A side benefit of the plan would be that fearing Ireland may fall into the hands of Germany, the United Kingdom would then be forced to invade the neutral Irish Free State thus risking the condemnation of the United States, which was not yet at war.
    The operatives however reported back to Germany that the I.R.A. were "unreliable" and "undisciplined" and would take months to train. The operation was finally scrapped when Seelöwe was placed on indefinite hold and the operatives captured by the Irish police.
    A modified bombing campaign by the I.R.A. in conjunction with the Luftwaffe aerial bombing over England was later planned in 1941, codenamed Artur ("Arthur").
     
  2. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Interesting. Bu tconisdering the barges were to land on Ireland's south coast, how did they expect to get away with it? This would be deemed an act if invasion on the neutral Irish state, who would then declare war on Germany. And let's face it, who wants to face an irate irishman?
    The IRA's plans to buddy up with Germany would probably have led to their downfall once it was realised by the Unionist side of Ireland that Germany was here to stay and was a much nastier master than Britain had ever been. Ireland would have gone up like a bottle of pop!
    Operation Green would have really given Germany a bloody nose, and brought the Irish into the game. And ultimately America.
     
  3. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    It just goes to show the bitterness that some (by no means the majority) felt towards the British that they would throw their lot in with the Nazis in order to get a united Ireland. What they didnt realise is that whilst they may have got their wishes it would be a mere province in a greater Reich.

    I live 10 minutes away from the house that Goertz stayed in in a district called Terenure. I must get some photos of the house and post them here!
     
  4. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    Interesting. Bu tconisdering the barges were to land on Ireland's south coast, how did they expect to get away with it? This would be deemed an act if invasion on the neutral Irish state, who would then declare war on Germany. And let's face it, who wants to face an irate irishman?
    The IRA's plans to buddy up with Germany would probably have led to their downfall once it was realised by the Unionist side of Ireland that Germany was here to stay and was a much nastier master than Britain had ever been. Ireland would have gone up like a bottle of pop!
    Operation Green would have really given Germany a bloody nose, and brought the Irish into the game. And ultimately America.


    Don't you mean Republican?, the Unionists are pro- British.
     
  5. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Don't you mean Republican?, the Unionists are pro- British.

    You are quite right. Thanks Sarg. However, you try sitting through a Global Socio-Political Issues lecture on a monday morning and then do coherent for the rest of the day.
     
  6. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    I could se one major problem with the plan and its flaw was actually borne out in real life. The planning staff of the Okw were assuming that the IRA were trained to the same standard.
     
  7. smc

    smc Member

    Hence, the reported quote from Goertz to the IRA, "You might know how to die for your country but you have no idea how to fight for it" (Or words to that affect).

    De Valera had a huge problem in that Ireland's army was infiltrated by the IRA right up to Chief of Staff level with a number of others sympathetic. In fact the IRA used to regularly raid the Irish Army's arsenals for weapons. The Nazis often used small terrorist groups for their own ends either to use against legitimate governments or to hold as a threat should a friendly government walk out of line. And yes the IRA as well as these other groups were so cocooned by their own hatred for a particular enemy that they failed to see the consequences that co-operation would bring.

    Colloaboration with an invading Nazi army may well have been the long term death sentence for the then IRA.
     
  8. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    It would have been interesting to see the response of the Unionist (is that right Sarge?) factions to the IRA alliance with Germany. And what about the average Irishman? Would he have stood back and let Germany land in his home country just to allow them to get at the British forces and try to force Britain into an invasion? Would Britain have invaded? Shame the token Paddy's in Berlin, this is just the kind of thing he can answer.
     
  9. morse1001

    morse1001 Very Senior Member

    It would have been interesting to see the response of the Unionist (is that right Sarge?) factions to the IRA alliance with Germany. And what about the average Irishman? Would he have stood back and let Germany land in his home country just to allow them to get at the British forces and try to force Britain into an invasion? Would Britain have invaded? Shame the token Paddy's in Berlin, this is just the kind of thing he can answer.

    the unionists were the protestant part of the North. Sinc e, many thousands of Southern irishmen and women joined the British forces, then there was some feeling for the old country!
     
  10. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    Geoff, excellent thread. So there were SD or Abwehr units operating in Ireland and they were helped by the IRA?May be a little truth to Mr.Devlin after all.

    Give me one of those Bolshevik firecrackers...
    I think I fell asleep in the snow.

    Thought this was interesting:

    http://www.hoganstand.com/general/identity/stories/ballivor.htm

    reads like the script to: The Eagle has Landed
     
  11. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER

    Geoff, excellent thread. So there were SD or Abwehr units operating in Ireland and they were helped by the IRA?May be a little truth to Mr.Devlin after all.



    reads like the script to: The Eagle has Landed

    Liked the movie.

    Showed there were Germans with honour, as there were. As well as the British hating Irish as there were also.

    Did you ever see the movie with Donald Sutherland "Eye of the Needle"?
     
  12. Herroberst

    Herroberst Senior Member

    No, I haven't I'll have to check it out.
     
  13. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    It would have been interesting to see the response of the Unionist (is that right Sarge?) factions to the IRA alliance with Germany. And what about the average Irishman? Would he have stood back and let Germany land in his home country just to allow them to get at the British forces and try to force Britain into an invasion? Would Britain have invaded? Shame the token Paddy's in Berlin, this is just the kind of thing he can answer.



    See what you mean Mossie, but bear in mind that the Easter uprising had taken place only twenty odd years previously and after that the civil war between the IRA and the Irish Free State. Elements of the Southern Irish population thought that the British handling was heavy handed and this would have been picked up by the IRA's propaganda machine. Nationalist fervour would perhaps look at the Nazi's as the chance to get the British out of the the North as well.

    If one looks at it from a bigger picture some republicans might have looked as siding up with the Germans as the only way they could strike a blow against the British - by joining with a professional military force.

    With Britain's back to the wall and the Germans in the south of Ireland, the republicans might have thought that Britain would withdraw it's troops to the mainland - not withstanding that the Navy was still intact and could have kept the North supplied.

    In the North while the Unionists answered the cause, there were elements wary of the war because of the Great War twenty odd years previous,and the losses of Ulsterman on the battlefields of France. You have elements in the Catholic community who were fervently anti- British, thinking of themselves as being cut off from their fellow Catholics by partition of the six counties. Able or Leading Seaman Mc Guinness a Catholic won the VC along with a Lieutenant Fraser for a daring mission to sink a warship in the Far East - he is awarded his medal but he is treated as an outcast by his own community on his return.

    With reference to the barges, it is alright having them on the shore, but there would have been major logistical problems keeping them supplied. The German navy would have to go round the South of England - it would have to run the gauntlet of the Navy on it's own doorstep. Shades of the armada.

    I don't dont know the Irish parliament's or De Valera's motives for remaining neutral in the war. It could be that they didn't wan't to side with Britain, they would have wanted her to get a bloody nose, they didn't have the resources to do it theirselves. If De Valera sided with the British{ I can't imagine that}, he would have been lynched by his own. If they threw in their lot with the Germans then they would realise that the repercussions would be worse than 1916, with perhaps Britain occupying the South again and the possibility of the partition agreement being ripped up. To them a retrograde step. De Valera wasn't going to be bullied by Churchill to allow the Allies to use the country as a base. Sending a condolence telegram on the death of Hitler shows something more than that.

    De Valera's only logical option was to be neutral. One might say he didn't want to get involved in the war and concentrate on developing the South instead. Some might say he did it so he could inconvenience Britain, others might say he was stuck between a rock and a hard place.

    While there might have not been the depth of ill feeling between the Protestants and Catholics that one has only seen too often in the North., some of the Catholics wouldn't see any obligation to side with the British. If they had been aware of what the Nazi's were capable of from the start they may have thought differently.

    It has been commented on that when war was declared a lot of Irish returned to Ireland and were called "suitcases" or similar. They were derided by the English for doing this. Maybe because they spoke the same language it meant that they were like them,an affinity and somehow meant they were walking out on them. If they had spoken Spanish or Portuguese would they have been looked at differently. Also bear in mind a lot of Irish were in England because of the work - nothing else. Probably they thought why should they get caught up in a fight that was not theirs, but Britain's.

    If you look at the recent history the potato famine and the lack of help from Britain in alleviating it. The ill treatment by the landowners towards the farm workers a by product of which "Boycott" entered the language. Cromwell and his cutting down of women and children at Drogheda and other settlements, you can see the republicans deep seated animosity towards the British in their psyche. They look at this feel justified in their resentment towards Britian and empire. Look at it from their viewpoint and their history would we look at it any differently.
     
  14. lancesergeant

    lancesergeant Senior Member

    I forgot to mention!!! that up until 1948, the south was a British dominion and part of the Commonwealth, hence it would have been thought by some that Ireland was not united in supporting the fight against the Nazis. Also I'll mention it before someone else does - those that aligned to that view were a part. A sizeable amount of Irish fought in British units, if you look at the neutrality aspect, they would have been under no compulsion to serve and they are to be commended on that as well as their contribution to the war effort.
     
  15. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Cheers for the history info dump Sarge, i now have a lot to think upon, including my lack of British history lessons at school.
    Hmm, tricky question isn't it? So many Irish volunteered to fight, but Eire refused to get involved, and yet in the background the more powerful members were probably willing to let Nazi forces land in order to get at the Ulster province.
    Good job it never happened as the hornets nest it would have stirred up would have been frightful to see.
     
  16. Kiwiwriter

    Kiwiwriter Very Senior Member

    Geoff, excellent thread. So there were SD or Abwehr units operating in Ireland and they were helped by the IRA?May be a little truth to Mr.Devlin after all.

    Give me one of those Bolshevik firecrackers...
    I think I fell asleep in the snow.

    Thought this was interesting:

    http://www.hoganstand.com/general/identity/stories/ballivor.htm

    reads like the script to: The Eagle has Landed

    "Spies in Ireland" covers the story. It was a strange war for the Irish.
     
  17. ourbill

    ourbill Senior Member

    A case of 'better the devil you know'
    Surely the best bet was to wait till Britain had been taken over by the Germans then join in the victory parades in London. In the meantime remain neutral and play both sides.
     
  18. smc

    smc Member

    Not sure about that, De Valera was a canny operator and had a better understanding of the situation than many of his countrymen. His exact words to both the British and Germans were that the Irish would fight whoever invaded first and call for help from the other side in the process. What historians have generally agreed upon is that De Valera expected the first invaders to be the Germans. Churchill twice offered to open negotiations for the possibility of the north being returned to Ireland in return for the use of a number of Irish ports but was rebuffed by De Valera on both occasions. With a potentially large and armed fifth column within your country who were more than ready to throw in their lot with the Germans De Valera was never going to take any risks hence the strict neutrality. If anything a successful invasion of Britain would have made Irish independence precarious. If they didn't invade then the Germans would have dictated the direction Irish policy was to take and De Valera knew this.
     
  19. Kitty

    Kitty Very Senior Member

    Sounds like De Valera had to straddle a razor sharp fence.
     

Share This Page