From yesterday's New York Times: "THIRTEEN years ago, researchers at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum began the grim task of documenting all the ghettos, slave labor sites, concentration camps and killing factories that the Nazis set up throughout Europe. "What they have found so far has shocked even scholars steeped in the history of the Holocaust. "The researchers have cataloged some 42,500 Nazi ghettos and camps throughout Europe, spanning German-controlled areas from France to Russia and Germany itself, during Hitler’s reign of brutality from 1933 to 1945. "The figure is so staggering that even fellow Holocaust scholars had to make sure they had heard it correctly when the lead researchers previewed their findings at an academic forum in late January at the German Historical Institute in Washington. “'The numbers are so much higher than what we originally thought,' Hartmut Berghoff, director of the institute, said in an interview after learning of the new data." http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/sunday-review/the-holocaust-just-got-more-shocking.html Dave
From what I understand within my books, the so-called ordinary German at wars end claimed to have no knowledge of these camps. How could they not know? with so many as shown above.
Calling them Nazis distracts from the fact that they were German. Nazism was a political party. Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This month marks the 80th anniversary of the founding of the Dachau Concentration Camp by the Nazis: "Established in March 1933, the Dachau concentration camp was the first regular concentration camp established by the National Socialist (Nazi) government. Heinrich Himmler, in his capacity as police president of Munich, officially described the camp as 'the first concentration camp for political prisoners.' It was located on the grounds of an abandoned munitions factory near the northeastern part of the town of Dachau, about 10 miles northwest of Munich in southern Germany. "During the first year, the camp held about 4,800 prisoners. Initially the internees consisted primarily of German Communists, Social Democrats, trade unionists, and other political opponents of the Nazi regime. Over time, other groups were also interned at Dachau, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Roma (Gypsies), homosexuals, as well as 'asocials' and repeat criminal offenders. During the early years relatively few Jews were interned in Dachau and then usually because they belonged to one of the above groups or had completed prison sentences after being convicted for violating the Nuremberg Laws of 1935." Dachau The camp was liberated by the 42nd and 45th (U.S.) Infantry Divisions. Dave
good day peter clare.re:yesterday.01:18.pm.calling them nazis distracts from the fact they were germans,i congratulate you on that statement.it is an opinion i have allways held,and to hell with being politicaly correct.they are germans and thats a fact.i was goieng to send my message to dave 500,but i spoted your statment,i must thank him for a fine thread as with yours.all the best to you and true thinking people.have a good day.bernard85
Dave Not shown in the map but mentioned in the footnote are those in SE Europe - Yugoslavia or dummy states, Romania, Hungary, Greece, etc.
Following a discussion on another forum, when someone mentioned a camp in France with a gas chamber, I found this map, which adds to the map on Dave 500's original post : http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_nm.php?ModuleId=10005144&MediaId=366 The extermination camp was actually in Alsace, which had been annexed by the Germans. Natzweiller - Struthoff. There were still a shocking number of concentration camps in France, and some holding camps, one of which, at Masseube, is only 15km from where we live. They have a memorial there. Some interesting reports about it here (though in french): http://e.de-luget.pagesperso-orange.fr/index.htm
It was at Natzwiller that Kramer,later the commandant of Belsen concentration camp became acquainted with the gassing of inmates.The gas chamber was a small brick building which was external to the main gates of the camp and still exists.I think it was experimental in concept.However Kramer's involvement in the Holocaust was the training at Auschwitz which he was u/t to Hoess. Kramer had initially visited Auschwitz with Hoess in 1940 to ascertain a site for a new synthetic oil plant and rubber plant ...later IG Farben used slave labour/concentration camp inmates for their Buna synthetic rubber plant. The German war economy was underwritten by the use of slave labour/concentration camp inmates taken from from the overrun countries of Europe.The SS were not only the spine of the Nazi terror machine for from their founding they formed businesses based on the use of slave labour. Income was banked in the name of of Max Heiliger,a bogus account which was designed to receive deposits from the proceeds of victims' possessions.Overall, Himmler set up an SS economic empire which controlled business and manufacturing enterprises,all sanctioned by Hitler....a good example among many, being the Mauthausen quarry attached to the concentration camp of the same name.
Almost incredible - cold, calculating organisation. From 1943 all young men in France were also taken for slave labour in Germany. Unless they went into hiding in the maquis. Those who went to Germany were regarded as traitors here until quite recently.
Harry Ree - I see you mentioned the STO in this thread: http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/436-living-under-german-occupation-or-under-vichy/?hl=%2Bservice+%2Btravail+%2Bobligatoire#entry10246 I have a book by a man aged 90+ living near us who was conscripted in 1943.
Yes,the STO can be regarded as the last effort to drain France of its manpower as Germany became more desperate to maintain its war economy output.I can imagine that the deportee you mention can tell a good account of his experiences with the STO....requires to be recorded for future generations. The first call was for volunteers to work in Germany which attracted those who were drawn into the promise of high wages coupled with the German promise that they would release French POWs in a one for one exchange...."la releve"; the relief programme as it was conceived and; termed by Laval .The Germans failed to deliver but put further demands on the Vichy Government for deported labour through the practitioner of slave/forced labour,Sauckel. Vichy,through Laval then came up with the concept of the STO scheme to satisfy their German masters and promised 400.000 workers by 30 June 1943.The German thirst for manpower had already taken 240000 workers in 1942 and had already 900000 French POWs which had not been released.Further demands for deported labour In the summer of 1943 led to the Germans in Paris conducting a census with the intention of deporting childless women between the ages of 18 and 25, to work for the German war machine.The intention was that they would first receive training in French factories.By January 1944,the German demand on French manpower had reached 2 million of which 300000 had to be dispatched in January. From 1943 the number of Maquis units accelerated especially in the former Vichy governed area and attracted large scale recruitment into the Maquis from those who refused to register and tghose who did.There were counter demonstrations from civilians at the railway stations where those registered for STO had to report.Vichy responded with their Gardes Mobiles; armed police to keep the demonstrations checked but rail sabotage became a regular tactic of those resisting.The Millice,created by Joseph Darnand,an auxiliary force allied to the Gestapo and driven by the local Vichy administration sought to arrest those with the STO commitment.Raids on hiding places were commonplace as the Milice hunted down the fugitives from forced labour. There was ample evidence that some local administrations and police chiefs were over zealous in pursuit of the German cause.The principals,Laval and Sauckel paid the supreme penalty while Hubert Largardelle as the Vichy Ministry of Labour who had collaborated with the STO programme was sentenced on 17 July 1946 to life;with hard labour. One of the best publications in English, covering this era is H R Kedward's "in Search of the Maquis 1942-1944....... the events in the former unoccupied territory governed by the Petain regime are well detailed.
There is a sign at Dachau stating there were no gas chambera there, it was a transfer station!! As for Auschwitz there wasn't a gas chamber there either!! If you actually take the tour and see the "gas chamber" you would see how it was renovated and also looks nothing like the ones described by survivors.
Do any of you research?? Or do you swallow thea allies propaganda hook line and sinker. The only holocaust was Dresden!! There were never any gas chambers and that is a scientific fact.
More than you, I'd wager. For example, you claim Dresden was the only holocaust - so what about Hamburg, Cologne, Berlin, etc. which had seven sorts of the proverbial bombed out of them? Don't they count? Anyway, don't let me take up too much of your time here, you probably haven't got much...
Oh look, another unoriginal denier, haven't had one of those in a while. I almost feel bad about all that wasted energy expended by them in turning away from the truth just to try and feel superior. Why don't you just switch off your computer and go out and do something less boring instead? Let me help you on your way. Bye.
I once asked my father what he had fought for , he looked puzzled at first but then calmly answered ,for freedom agains tyranny. That he went on to say included the right to say things that others thought were wrong. I can challenge any aspect of history and be looked upon as objective or mis informed, if I question aspects of world war 2 I can be labelled an anti Semite or a Holocaust denier. It is not my aim to upset anybody or deny the wrongs that were done , but only to discuss in an adult way the history of the Second World War. Was that not why my Dad spent 3.5 yrs as a POW? Thanks
Stalaxxb re the history there are many threads on here to help you find further information regards clive
