The naming of tanks

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Robert-w, Dec 21, 2019.

  1. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Like T S Elliot's cats a tank can have more than one name. It may have a name bestowed on an individual tank often by its crew and a type name eg Challenger. However before WW2 tanks do not appear to have had type names other then generic functional ones such as Medium Mk III and were often merely referred to by a code eg A10, T35, M3 etc. At a point in WW2 names began to appear including the British Cs like Crusader, Centaur, Comet etc, The American Generals, Lee, Sherman etc and the German big cats Tiger and Panther. Apart from rhe Stalin the Soviets do not appear to have followed the trend.

    My questions are - why did this start? Who started it? Which came first - the Matilda? What if any was the logic behind the naming systems? Why did the US choose generals? Was there any system behind the naming of British infantry tanks? Who chose the names?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Cherrypicking the easy one: the US didn't choose generals, we did. That's why the earlier ones that we got on Lend-Lease used the famous generals (their exploits were on the syllabus at Sandhurst and/or the Staff College). By the time the Americans jumped on the bandwagon, there were only obscure ones left: the Chaffees, Pershings, Pattons etc.
     
  3. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    It was not the Americans that that named the US tanks but the British. The US Army always seems to have used M3, M4 etc and the names only became popular in the US post-war. This from Osprey New Vanguard 33 M3 & M5 Stuart Light Tank 1940-45. "The two new American Tanks shared a confusing similarity in nomenclature, the M3 light tank and M3 medium tank, and so Britain instituted its own system for American tanks using the names of American Civil War generals".

    Having started the policy with Stuart & Grant, two Confederate generals, some balance was then required and so the US version of the M3 became the Lee and the M4 the Sherman after Union generals. Initially the Stuart was known to the troops in the desert as the "Honey".

    So the naming of US tanks first arose in early 1941. After the above they then continued with the Chaffee and Pershing. Although the M10c has become known as the Achilles, this was not used officially as it was controlled by the Artillery part of the British Army not the Armoured Corps.
     
  4. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    So why was there a Lee and a Grant? We only took the Grant
     
  5. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Errm - Granf was a Union General and Lee was a Confederate. The early Stuart was called Honey because of the ease of driving and curiously this was an American usage as in "She's a real honey to drive" Perhaps your source need checking.
     
  6. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    Just looked at Dick Taylor's "Into the Vally". The origins of the Valentine name seem lost in the mists of time with at least 3 options

    1. Middle name of Vicker's technical director responsible for its design
    2. The design was shown to the army on Valentine's Day 1938 (actually occurred on 10th Feb)
    3. Acronym from Vickers Armstong Ltd Elswick Newcastle upon Tyne.

    He however believes it was simply their project name and notes that a lot of Vickers project names began with a V. Officialdom initially referred to it as the Infantry Tank Mark III until sometime mid-war when Valentine, which had been in common use amongst the troops, seemed to stick.

    If I had to choose an option then a combination of 3 and Dick Taylor's choice would seem logical. But who knows.
     
  7. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    Mea culpa. I can't read properly! You are of course correct.
     
  8. Robert-w

    Robert-w Banned

    Interesting but raises the question - if it was an internal Vickers name how did the troops pick up on it?
     
  9. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    The Lee had the original US turret and the Grant a British designed turrret with a radio in a bustle at the rear. We took both the Lee and the Grant. Pictures of the Lee in the desert seem to be rare, while in Burma there seem to have been more Lees than Grants.
     
  10. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    I dug some data out of the Anzac Steel website last year and I see that there were only 75 Lees delivered to the Middle East compared to 657 Grants, which explains their rarity in photos. By way of comparison there were 517 Lees and 379 Grants delivered to India.
     
  11. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    There is documentary evidence that 2 is the correct answer which is not absolutely confirmatory, but is fairly good nonetheless.
     
    Chris C likes this.
  12. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian Patron

    I found in a minute of (of all things) the Waterproofing Committee that SP "code names" like Archer and Avenger were created by the Ministry of Supply. I don't know if that applied to tank names or not. Are for instance Crusaders referred to as such in unit War Diaries?
     
  13. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    M4 series known as the Sherman to to British
    M3 series known as the Grant and Lee with the differences noted as in Post #9 but the turret in the Grant was cast.
     
  14. Orwell1984

    Orwell1984 Senior Member

    Last edited: Dec 21, 2019
    Chris C likes this.
  15. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    When I first arrived at the 4th Queen's Own Hussars, I was amused to see that someone had named his tank as "Semper in Excretum".
    For the benefit of those not familiar with Dog Latin. this translates as "Always in the Sxxt"

    Ron
     
    SDP and Orwell1984 like this.

Share This Page