I have recently purchased Terry Copp's book FIELDS OF FIRE: The Canadians in Normandy. I've been covering the Verrieres Ridge battle in which the Black Watch of Canada was nearly destroyed as a unit (314 out of 342 all ranks). Has anyone seen the video put out by the CBC about this battle? Is there another book out on this battle? I've heard it talked about on the Canadian Forum and have seen it for sale but was wondering if someone had a link to it online where some of the video may have been posted. Much appreciated, Mick
Mick, I've seen the video and wasn't much impressed. No facts that have not already been uncovered and the 'battle dramatizations' are amateurish at best. You're off to a good start with Terry Copp. I'd also suggest John English and Jack Granatstein, who comment on Verrieres Ridge as part of the overall Normandy campaign.
Canuck, Muchas gras, sir. Copp's book is simply ... excellent. His analysis of the Canadian contribution in Normandy is holy writ in my book; I swallowed Max Hasting's viewpoints years ago ("the supermen can do no wrong") while the decade's long lambasting of the Allies in Normandy continued unabated; as an American I have heard everything from "... it was the Canadians fault" to " ... Monty is an idiot" - the jingoistic tenor of most American authors who have written about the campaign. Copp's research seems fresh to me and established salient points about the success of the Canadians in Normandy. RE: Verrieres Ridge. Thanks for your take on the video. I have been researching Griffin's action(s) and the composite Kampfgruppe that destroyed the BW force for some time now and everything (thats anything on the battle) must be known or that the video might have new evidence. RE: John English. Ordered a copy last night off Amazon.com! Thanks for your post. Regards, Mick
I think you are referring to the program done for the Canadian History channel in the last few years, not the CBC production 'The Valour and the Horror' from the early 90s that included one episode that focused on Verrieres. Both are quite critical of Simonds and try to rehabilitate (for lack of a better term) the reputation of Maj. Griffin of the Black Watch. I think the program you reference was more balanced overall, though some find it a bit over-critical of everyone except the Black Watch. David R. O'Keefe is the Regimental Historian of the Black Watch and wrote and narrated the program, googling him will probably turn up more information. He has done a lot of work recently on Ultra and what Simonds should have known, though I believe it tends to concentrate on operations after Spring (see Canadian Army Journal). His thesis on Spring is here: http://www.ruor.uottawa.ca/fr/bitstream/handle/10393/4529/MQ26354.PDF?sequence=1
Kevin, Much appreciate the link to the thesis on SPRING. I am just now getting stuck into the operation in Copp's book and its beginning to read like Bernard Fall at Dien Bien Phu. So many problems are going wrong (no artillery, bad intelligence, inability to find the FUP, SL currently in German hands, lack of commo, etc.) Its a great read and I am finding it very hard to put down ... I do have one question to ask: how far did the Black Watch reach? Ken Tout (THE BLOODY BATTLE FOR TILLY: Normandy 1944) states that a better part of half a company of Black Watch actually passed through the SL and moved over the ridge and into the guns of the awaiting Kampfgruppe. Tout's version states that the battalion was not destroyed enroute to the ridge, but once reaching the top and "disappearing into the midst on the far side" the unit met its ultimate fate. Is there any evidence to support this? (Tout also states Griffin fell near the outskirts of Fontenay, which lends credence to the veterans story I have listed below). A Canadian soldier I met in Holland on the Fierdaagse stated that a Black Watch veteran (a survivor of the actual battle) told him that half a section made it as far as Fortenay-le-Marmion (the rear of 9 SS Pzr Div where they walked amongst German tanks idling in laager) before being forced to surrender. Tout's footnotes in the back of his book do not match the first chapter ('In the footslogger's Boots') where this is covered. I wonder if that statement is true or has been verified.... My apologies for my many questions. I am actually researching the Rifle Brigade in Normandy (notably Villers Bocage) but happened on the Verrieres Ridge battle and have become hopelessly saddled with reading more about it! I will be travelling to Normandy next year for a tour of the Villers Bocage battlefield, but will be making a detour to the hallowed ground near Verrieres to walk the ground. Regards, Mick
This thread from canadiansoldiers.com might be of interest, some similar questions and links to the WD. CSC Discussion Forum: Battle of Vierres Ridge (Black Watch of Canada)
Kevin, Just surfed into Dorosh's site and read the thread (Mike makes a good arguement). Copp makes mention of the post-war debate and I read something online just yesterday about Griffin's father petitioning authorities in Canada to award his son the Victoria Cross for the action. There is enough information and opposing arguements to keep this issue forefront for the next several decades. Thanks K. Mick
While the Black Watch suffered grevious casualties at Verrieres and it was clearly a debacle, there were no shortage of engagements during the Normandy campaign where Canadian units were badly mauled. The Queen's Own Rifles suffered 55 killed, 33 wounded and 11 taken prisoner during the attack on Le Mesnil-Patry and the Highland Light Infantry suffered 262 casualties at Buron. In early June, at Buron, the The North Nova Scotia casualties were 84 killed, 30 wounded and 128 captured while the Winnipeg Rifles lost 256 men including 105 killed. The Canadian Scottish lost 125 men, including 45 killed. The constant pressure on Allied commanders to maintain the offensive was exceptionally high and that inevitably led to mistakes. Although it was by far the worst example, Verrieres should be kept in the context of many actions with similar outcomes.
Excellent point. All over Normandy it was the same: 5th Black Watch at Breville; 1st Rifle Brigade at Villers Bocage. The Verrieres battle reminds me of 1st Rangers at Cisterna.
Hi just new here....my great uncle died at Verriers ridge, I am touring the area and visiting his grave (Bretteville-sur-laize)at the war cemetary in October 2011. He was with the South Saskatchewan Rifles Regiment (infantry)..... any assistance or connections to others related to soldiers (or vets would be GREAT) there would be appreciated.
Dave, Welcome to the forum. I am heading over in June, 2011. Wish we were walking over the ground together. It will be my first visit to Normandy. The Verriers ridge battle is forever submerged in history, but as Canuck stated, this event mirrors other actions in Normandy. All the best on your trip as you remember your Great Uncle. If you do get a photo of his grave, I hope you will post it here. He was a member of Canada's Greatest Generation.
Mick/Dave I hope you both have a phenomenal trip. I'd love to go back myself. If the Bretteville sur Laize cemetary is on your agendas then you may want to look at the following thread where some folks have done some great investigation of events in that area. http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/ww2-battlefields-today/17922-wittmann-question.html It's on the minds of most Canadians anyway but do try and get to Abbaye d'Ardenne too.
Thanks very much for your responses my Great uncle (Lawrence Charlton) was with the 2nd Canadian Infantry Divsion 6th Brigade.... cant find which company though. He died July 20 on Verriers Ridge. The story, according to other soldiers who returned, was that in one of the attacks he was wounded by German machine gun fire.....when the SSR retreated they found him bleeding but alive...couldnt help as the Germans were right on their heels, when they were able to re-take the area he had died. Buried originally at St Martin de Fontenay then to the war cemetary. Mick..... are you using to tour operator when you go ? I've been emailing one in particular who seems to have the interest and knowledge about this battle and the Canadian sector. I figured this was the best bet. And yes I will post the photos. Dave
Dave, PBI1944 Welcome to the forum. A suggestion concerning your upcoming trip. Make sure you ask the forum what to look for in terms of the Canadian sector. Lot's of experts here that can guide you on your journey. Cheers
Much appreciate the link to the thesis on SPRING. I am just now getting stuck into the operation in Copp's book and its beginning to read like Bernard Fall at Dien Bien Phu. So many problems are going wrong (no artillery, bad intelligence, inability to find the FUP, SL currently in German hands, lack of commo, etc.) Its a great read and I am finding it very hard to put down ... There was considerable Artillery support for this operation. The 2nd Cdn AGRA had 4 Medium Regts & 1 Heavy Regt in action as well as Divisional Artillery, authough the HQ 2CAGRA was knocked out for a while by heavy enemy shelling resulting in many casualties. Regards Rob
Hi 17th Thanks, yes while i've been "dabbling" in my research of this for some time, mostly through his war record information, it has become obvious to me how much I DIDNT know. I thought initially i couod see all i wanted in one day, not so sure that it would be enough time to walk properly and respectfully in his footsteps. do you know where one ight go to determine what company my uncle was in, seems this will help my tour guides research!
Dave, I have some reference material back at the office that may help. In the interim, there are a lot of Brits here that can help. Have you a photo of the headstone and which cemetery? Randy
Hi 17th Thanks, yes while i've been "dabbling" in my research of this for some time, mostly through his war record information, it has become obvious to me how much I DIDNT know. I thought initially i couod see all i wanted in one day, not so sure that it would be enough time to walk properly and respectfully in his footsteps. do you know where one ight go to determine what company my uncle was in, seems this will help my tour guides research! Dave, Would his war record information not give you the company he was in? There is a ton of information on the regiment through this link http://cap.estavan.ck.ca As well, there was a recent regimental reunion this past September in Weyburn which had a turnout of some 33 Veterans. Perhaps one of the Vets might recall your uncle? Please send me a PM with your email address... I have the contact details of the organizer of the reunion. Cheers from near Balsam Lake, ON
Thanks 17th and when I figure out how to send a PM I will, however I have no problem sharing my email address in open forum I have done some research on the SSR Regimental site .. I sent a message to the general mailbox but it "bounced back" so any help would be appreciated as I know some of the vets did return to Canada who were with him when he dies. Have no idea if they are still alive toay but sure would be nice. His war record has much short forms I cant make out, however 6CIB is mentioened a number of times perhaps but no letter which is I beleive how the companys are designated........
17th..again with much thanks.... I do not have a picture of his headstone, he is at Bretteville-sur-laize cemetary. Dave
