Was the legendary dual b/t Erwin Konig and Vasili Zaistev ever proved to be a true fact of both German and Russian History?
(Hidden_Sniper @ Dec 20 2005, 12:55 PM) [post=43426]Was the legendary dual b/t Erwin Konig and Vasili Zaistev ever proved to be a true fact of both German and Russian History? [/b] No since you wont find any mention of any German sniper called Erwin Konig in German archives. Hell, if this man was that good, you would have seen him somewhere in Signal or any other Nazi propaganda stuff. Point is, the guy never existed (and same goes for the German sniper named Thorwald that is mentionned in Zaitzev's memoirs).
Yes, I looked up on Thorwald... And he was a complete myth..... The source that I located told me that Thorwald was just a myth to be used against Zaitsev, where the Germans were trying to contridict the whole Konig/Zaistev dual with Thorwald. They said it was nothing but propaganda that was used to deplete Zaistev's morale and force him to either surrender to the Germans, or make a fatal mistake.
(Hidden_Sniper @ Dec 21 2005, 10:21 AM) [post=43458]Yes, I looked up on Thorwald... And he was a complete myth..... The source that I located told me that Thorwald was just a myth to be used against Zaitsev, where the Germans were trying to contridict the whole Konig/Zaistev dual with Thorwald. They said it was nothing but propaganda that was used to deplete Zaistev's morale and force him to either surrender to the Germans, or make a fatal mistake. [/b] "The man who never was"
(Hidden_Sniper @ Dec 20 2005, 11:21 PM) [post=43458]Yes, I looked up on Thorwald... And he was a complete myth..... The source that I located told me that Thorwald was just a myth to be used against Zaitsev, where the Germans were trying to contridict the whole Konig/Zaistev dual with Thorwald. They said it was nothing but propaganda that was used to deplete Zaistev's morale and force him to either surrender to the Germans, or make a fatal mistake. [/b] Slighty confused here! If Konig never existed, why would the Germans need to invent someone called Thorwald? Are you saying the Russians invented Konig to bolster the already well established reputation of the prowess of Zaistev? Please elaborate a little..... I actually quite enjoyed "Enemy at The Gate"...what a shame if the German protaginist never really existed!
Thing is there was no Sniper school at Zossen, and there is no record in the German military archives (Wehrmacht or SS) of a SS officer named Thorwald or König, especially a kickass sniper. Lets say its just Soviet propaganda again
Well, I have learnt something new! So the whole "Enemy at The Gates" movie was myth-making..... In reality, it was propoganda and counter-propoganda!
(adamcotton @ Dec 31 2005, 10:53 AM) [post=43824]Well, I have learnt something new! So the whole "Enemy at The Gates" movie was myth-making..... In reality, it was propoganda and counter-propoganda! [/b] Zaitsev was real enough, and so was the effectiveness of Russian snipers. Regards, MikB
(adamcotton @ Dec 31 2005, 11:53 AM) [post=43824]Well, I have learnt something new! So the whole "Enemy at The Gates" movie was myth-making..... In reality, it was propoganda and counter-propoganda! [/b] Well the important word here is movie. Of course, the producers should have added some kind of warning (many of the things you're going to see are fictional ...Etc). But hey, what can you expect from guys that did not realize that Switzerland was not an Axis-occupied country in WW2 images/smilies/default/biggrin.gif
Yes, I know Zaitsev himself was real enough; the eye-opener was learning that Konig, et al, was a fiction! That's movies for you!!!
Needless to say, whenever the movie makers, mostly the american movie makers but it does happen all over, actual fact exits stage right and what is better for the story, easier to film or more artful takes its place. The first casualty of war may be innocence, but the first casualty of the 'movie makers' is truth.
(adamcotton @ Dec 31 2005, 10:06 AM) [post=43835]Yes, I know Zaitsev himself was real enough; the eye-opener was learning that Konig, et al, was a fiction! That's movies for you!!! [/b] Yes, Zaitsev was absolutley real, his picture can be viewed and you'll know its him. He still resides in the mother country of Russia. But my sources have told me that the such extience b/t konig and thorwald is not true. It does not have any imporant facts that back it up. No records of Konig heading a Sniper School with no records of its extience either. (ZOSSEN) And another item needs to be taken into notice, this war b/t Russia and Germany was nothing but a long stretch of propaganda lies that would either give hope, break hope, or attempt to mullify the opposing sides courage in the essence trying to get across the point that the Germans, or the Russians were more powerful. So why shouldn't this be Russian Propaganda? This whole point of making them up are nothing more than a way to give hope to the depleted Russian soliders, and to make the Russian civilans are the dominant race.
I see your point. There were a number of Russian snipers on an equal footing to Zaitsev, including a number of women. Sell your man and watch it effect the other side's morale. Zaitsev is known to the Germans, the others are doing their business. In house to house fighting the Germans are being sniped at not necessary by Zaitsev but others. It must be in the German infantryman's mind. The war in Stalingrad is dragging on. House to house fighting, protracted fighting, attrition. Russians are doing the pr, gives hope to their own side, that one of their comrades is a better shot than the enemy. Chuck in that Zaitsev takes out the top German sniper, not just the best sniper they have got but an officer at that. Proves the superiority of the Russians and that right is on their side. I think there was a website which went in depth into this dual (!!)I'll have to find it and put it on the site.
Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko had 300+ kills. Hollywood could have cast Barbara Streisand and made it into a musical. Did you like Enemy at the Gates? I thought it was really poor. To be serious, Matthias Hetzenauer was probably the best sniper of WWII with 350+confirmed but realistically more like 500 kills. He used a k98 with a 6x scope. Hetzenauer was in the 3rd Geb. Divisionen. Peter R. Senich is a good source for sniper info. His Book the German Sniper 1914-1945. It even has the Vampir(ZG 1229) an infrared night vision sight for use with the StG 44.
No. Soviet records acknowledge that Vassili Zaitsev did exist but German and Soviet archives are foggy on the subject of Major Koenig's (AKA to some: Heinz Thorwald) existence.
Here is a Russian opinion on Enemy at Gates. This is from Valeryi Potapov, owner of www.battlefield.ru . He hated the movie! http://www.battlefield.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=206&Itemid=108&lang=en
Not only one of THE best ww2 related websites ever but the assesment of the film was what first lured me onto the site. "oooh. What's this? if he's so right on this score I must investigate further" I now check Battlefield.Ru constantly to see if any more has been translated, everyone else should too, rammed with quality information.
Simo Häyhä killed 500 russian soldiers in 1 year I think if you really look into it in was the 'winter war' which only lasted about 3 months, which makes his achievment a damn sight more impressive.
I think if you really look into it in was the 'winter war' which only lasted about 3 months, which makes his achievment a damn sight more impressive. Just looked it up and the winter war was from November the 30th 1939 to March 15th 1940, so about 3 1/2 months. But he was injured on the 6th March and lay in hospital unconcious until the 13th. On regaining conciousness, he was promoted from Corporal to Second Lieutenant, which isn't bad by anyone's standard but well deserved all the same.
