the great escape ...... ????

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by jettisoning, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. jettisoning

    jettisoning Member

  2. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Typical piece of revisionist, hindsight nonsense. British officers had a duty to try and escape from POW camps and to do all they could to disrupt the enemy. The Great Escape did achieve both those objectives. Why is the Mail blaming Bushell for doing his duty and yet fails to comment on the complete illegality of the German personnel's murdering military personnel without trial. And while Bushell may have been "an alpha male", he surely wasn't alone in being so...not when there were plenty of other combat leaders cooped up in one place? The entire article is utter tosh - a fabrication made up of nothing more than applying modern, peacetime perceptions of reasonableness to entirely extraordinary situation.
     
    Dave55 likes this.
  3. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Member

    Did the author of this book really expect British officers to sit quietly and wait for the war to end? I, as a Yank, applaud the efforts of Bushell and the others. They obviously could not anticipate the brutality that would face them. I still see their efforts as being a Great Escape.
     
  4. Roxy

    Roxy Senior Member

    Whilst I have not read all the comments, the most recent ones seem to empathise with those imprisoned, and their attempt to escape.

    I'm not sure that the following indicates a reluctance to take part:

    "As one former Stalag Luft III PoW told me recently: ‘I sometimes think it wasn’t worth it. Fifty men’s lives it cost to tie up those Germans. Inevitably, they would have lost the war — and 50 people would have been alive today."

    Roxy
     
  5. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    Thanks to those who fought and to those who died, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    That is the good that came from defeating Hitler; no matter how wrong and misguided that opinion might be, this author is free to express it. And for that freedom, we should all be exceedingly grateful. I am.

    Marc
     
  6. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Sure, it was risky; most things in war are, especially when you are fighting an enemy who has no respect for even the few rules that exist in warfare. But you have to look at it from the other side, too. Few things are more soul-destroying than to be locked up for a long period of time. I've known men who have served time in prison (prison--not jail) and they all agree on that. If a man is going to keep any sense of self-respect, then he is bound to resist his captors in some way. That duty to the self is even greater when the captor is not the law but a national enemy who also happens to be ruthless. By resisting, men come out of the little isolated shells of the self and become a community; they are soldiers again, not just prisoners. That resistance can take many forms, of course, as we saw in a recent thread about SS reports on British prisoners. Bushell and the others in the Stalag chose an exceptionally dangerous form of resistance, and I don't feel qualified to criticize their choice.
     
    A-58 likes this.
  7. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    Sure, it was risky; most things in war are, especially when you are fighting an enemy who has no respect for even the few rules that exist in warfare. But you have to look at it from the other side, too. Few things are more soul-destroying than to be locked up for a long period of time. I've known men who have served time in prison (prison--not jail) and they all agree on that. If a man is going to keep any sense of self-respect, then he is bound to resist his captors in some way. That duty to the self is even greater when the captor is not the law but a national enemy who also happens to be ruthless. By resisting, men come out of the little isolated shells of the self and become a community; they are soldiers again, not just prisoners. That resistance can take many forms, of course, as we saw in a recent thread about SS reports on British prisoners. Bushell and the others in the Stalag chose an exceptionally dangerous form of resistance, and I don't feel qualified to criticize their choice.

    Well said.
    Beyond the 76 who actually escaped there was also the sense of purpose and active resistance, over many months, for virtually the entire camp population. How do you value that?

    50 men is equivalent to the full loss of 7 Lancasters. From a camp full of Commonwealth aviators and relative to the ongoing Bomber Command campaign, was that mission to escape worth the comparative sacrifice?
    I'll leave that judgement to those who were there. As TTH so eloquently stated, "I don't feel qualified".

    Having said that, the book (article) makes a serious allegation against Bushell. If it was his ego, he did pay the ultimate price for his vanity but I'd like to see some concrete evidence that Bushell disobeyed orders or was, in any way, conducting activities that were contrary to the expectations or direction from London.
     
  8. sandwichery

    sandwichery Junior Member

    As far as the men who participated in the Great Escape, most probably chose to do so of their own free will. From what I've read of Allied pows in Germany, one of their biggest problems was that of sheer boredom. Any chance to vary the daily routine of looking out through the wire and waiting for the next roll-call would be taken advantage of.
    These were young and energetic men in the prime of their lives. To have apathetically sat on their bunks and waited for the war to end would not have been in the nature of most. Some would have chosen that route, but they would have had the option to bow out of the operation.
    When I read an account by an actual participant stating that those men were forced into that tunnel, then I might buy into it. Until then it's just another case of revisionism raising its ugly head again.
     
    canuck likes this.
  9. Buffnut453

    Buffnut453 Member

    Marc,

    I entirely agree with your sentiments. Equally, those who disagree with this revisionist/hindsight/misapplication of modern standards nonsense can express our opinions.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  10. Son of POW-Escaper

    Son of POW-Escaper Senior Member

    W/C 'Mike' Lewis DFC POW, (a friend and co-POW/escaper of my father) once told me that, at most, only 20% or so of POW's took active part in escape schemes. And of that number, less than 10% actually attempted to escape. He said that most felt that they had already cheated death and had done their duty; they weren't going to take foolish chances trying to escape.

    Having said that, I was fortunate enough to meet Roger Bushell's SBO ('Wings' Day) when I was a boy. 'Wings' made at least 6 escape attempts (including the Great Escape and an escape from Sachsenhausen Concentration Camp afterwards). I can't put words in his mouth, but his actions speak volumes.

    Marc
     
  11. sparky34

    sparky34 Senior Member

    an interesting thought ,, o.k we are mostly old men now ,and most of us served when
    conscription was compulsory ,,and after the end of W.W 2 ,but remembering when we
    were also 18 and above and also if we had been a prisoner at SAGAN at that time with
    no knowledge what the future held for us ,would you personally have joined the escape
    team or been content to sit and wait for the war's end ..
    remembering my impulsive nature and lack of patience [ even now ] at that age , i would
    probably joined the escapers ..of course they did not know what fate awaited them ...
     
  12. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The IS9 historical record (soon to be online) has an interesting paragraph on the Great Escape:

    A mass escape from STALAG LUFT III in March, 1944, was a tragic climax to the history of escaping in Germany. There had been mass escapes before, but since the Spring of 1943, when the Germans adopted special measures for dealing with such outbreaks, most of the escapers concerned had been recaptured. The Escape Committee at STALAG LUFT III knew, therefore, that a mass break had less chance of success, but, on the other hand, the tunnel had taken a year to build, which seemed a disproportionate effort if only seven or eight were to profit by it. The result of this mass escape is well known. Of the 74 who actually got out of the tunnel, only three reached England. The rest were caught by the Gestapo and S.S. Troops and 50 of them murdered. The rest were sent back to STALAG LUFT III and reported to the Escape Committee exactly what had occurred. They stated that everyone had strictly complied with the Geneva Convention and had given themselves up immediately they had been challenged, thereby carrying out the instruction laid down for all escapers.
    After this example of German ruthlessness P/W were discouraged from escaping in view of their ultimate certain liberation in the near future.
     
  13. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    The report also mentions the reluctance in some quarters about even allowing servicemen to be instructed in esacpe and evading methods as they thought it could lower morale.

    The Submarine service, for example, banned any E&E lectures unless the crew were on special operations.
     

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