The First Day of The Somme - 1 July 1916

Discussion in 'Prewar' started by Jonathan Ball, Jul 1, 2011.

  1. CROONAERT

    CROONAERT Ipsissimus

    I recently 'inherited' a collection of WWI books. Two in particular I found very thought provoking;

    'Through german eyes: the British and the Somme 1916' by Christopher Duffy and
    'Mud, Blood and Poppycock' by Gordon Corrigan.

    I enjoyed duffy's book and thought it was very good. Can't stand Corrigan though... after reading a couple of his works, I was left wondering whether he and I actually shared the same planet!!!!

    Dave

    (PS my own 'Somme link' would be my Gt.Uncle Jim of 'Z' Coy, 11th East Lancs (the Burnley Pals)... went over at Serre on 1st July , but managed to come back in from no-mans land that evening. The bombers from his company were the only men to manage to get into Serre that day, but were killed to a man (Jim always said that they managed it because someone told them that the pub in Serre was still open!!!)
     
  2. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    For the untweeters:

    By Rank/Appointment

    By Regiment

    Where They Rest

    :poppy:

    I posted earlier in the thread - message #2 - about a Great Granddad who was in the [Royal] Northumberland Fusiliers and this is a follow-up based on a subsequent post by Geoff (of 'search engine' fame).

    During my schools years most references to the horror of WWI focussed on the Somme - 1 July 1916 - and what happened to the Accrington Pals (11Bn East Lancs Regiment). They lost approx half their number KIA and only approx 136 men of the battalion survived the battle uninjured.

    What I had never realised until reading the 'By Regiment' link in Geoff's post (above) was that the [Royal] Northumberland Fusiliers had by far the most number of soldiers KIA on that day.

    Reflecting on this, I feel that as a child growing up in Northumberland I should have been taught about my country's history, which I was, but also about my local community's part in shaping it. The latter was missing.

    Anyway, feel cheated by the statutory education providers and am grateful to the freely provided education obtained on this forum. Thanks Geoff!

    Getting back to the Somme theme, here is the British Order Of Battle for 1 July 1916.

    OrderofBattle-BritishInfantryUnits.pdf

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  3. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Steve,

    Thanks for the interesting post. Below is a breakdown of the Northumberlands as recorded by CWGC (it does not help there is no standard unit name in their database!)

    Same here, never taught any history past c1850, but then I did not do history. Perhaps a regret, but then I don't think I could have handled it at the time.

    cheers,

    geoff


    135 - 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    112 - 16TH BN.
    143 - 25TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 7TH BN.
    312 - 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    160 - 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    4 - 17TH BN.
    149 - 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    128 - 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 13TH BN.
    2 - "B" COY. 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    240 - 23RD (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    11 - 18TH BN.
    4 - "C" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    159 - 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 26TH BN. (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - COMMANDING 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    5 - "B" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - "D" COY. 6TH BN.
    7 - "A" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - "D" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    12 - 12TH BN.
    1 - "C" COY. 6TH BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - 30TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN. ATTD. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - NO.1 COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - CDG. 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - 33RD (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - 27TH TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "D" COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    7 - 13TH BN.
    1 - 15TH BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 6TH BN.
    1 - 14TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 18TH BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - 29TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - "A" COY. 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - "A" COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    4 - 14TH BN.
    1 - 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN
    1 - 1ST BN.
    1 - NO. 1 COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - 4TH BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 16TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 16TH BN
    1 - 19TH BN.
    1 - 20TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 26TH BN.
    1 - 2ND GARRISON BN.
    1 - 26TH BN. (TYNESIDE IRISH)

    Total 1642
     
  4. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    My Grandfather was in the 22nd Northumberland fusiliers (3rd tyneside scottish) he is listed as killed 30 june 1916 he has no known grave- I am in the process of getting the Btn's war diary for the said period.

    TED

    Steve,

    Thanks for the interesting post. Below is a breakdown of the Northumberlands as recorded by CWGC (it does not help there is no standard unit name in their database!)

    Same here, never taught any history past c1850, but then I did not do history. Perhaps a regret, but then I don't think I could have handled it at the time.

    cheers,

    geoff


    135 - 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    112 - 16TH BN.
    143 - 25TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 7TH BN.
    312 - 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    160 - 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    4 - 17TH BN.
    149 - 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    128 - 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 13TH BN.
    2 - "B" COY. 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    240 - 23RD (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    11 - 18TH BN.
    4 - "C" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    159 - 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 26TH BN. (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - COMMANDING 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    5 - "B" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - "D" COY. 6TH BN.
    7 - "A" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - "D" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    12 - 12TH BN.
    1 - "C" COY. 6TH BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 16TH BN.
    1 - 30TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN. ATTD. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - NO.1 COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - CDG. 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - 33RD (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - 27TH TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 22ND (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "D" COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    2 - "C" COY. 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 21ST (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    7 - 13TH BN.
    1 - 15TH BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 6TH BN.
    1 - 14TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 18TH BN.
    1 - "B" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - 29TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - "A" COY. 24TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    2 - "A" COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    4 - 14TH BN.
    1 - 27TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN
    1 - 1ST BN.
    1 - NO. 1 COY. 20TH (TYNESIDE SCOTTISH) BN.
    1 - 4TH BN.
    1 - "A" COY. 26TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 16TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 16TH BN
    1 - 19TH BN.
    1 - 20TH (TYNESIDE IRISH) BN.
    1 - 26TH BN.
    1 - 2ND GARRISON BN.
    1 - 26TH BN. (TYNESIDE IRISH)

    Total 1642

    Hello Ted,

    I missed your post (above); apologies. It looks like the 3rd Bn Tyneside Scottish (22NF) had a hard time of it around the 30 June/1 July 1916 as well - see Geoff's figures above.

    Mt great granddad was with the 4th Bn, Tyneside Irish (27NF) on 1 July 1916, was wounded, convalesced and returned to the trenches with the 2nd Bn, Tyneside Irish (25NF). He was killed late in the war and likewise has no known grave. :poppy: :poppy:

    Geoff - Many thanks for your comments and assistance! [​IMG]

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  5. ted angus

    ted angus Senior Member

    Steve et al, I think I have found out what happened: firstly the battalion war diary has little detail: for the night 29/30 june it only mentions a 20 man raiding party that went out at 11-30 pm but were spotted and subsequently made a safe return to allied lines. However in the the war diary margin there is a casualty list , but its not clear if it is for the night 29/30 or the period 26/30 that the page covers. It lists a 2nd Lt Macdonald as injured , 4 ORs killed, 12 ORs wounded, 3 ORs missing.
    From the book Tyneside Scottish by Stewart & Sheen : pages 93-94, after the return of the 20 man patrol, a patrol of 1 officer & 5 ORs was subsequently sent out at 01-55am . It was led by 2nd Lt Macdonald, as they reached the german trenches they were spotted, Macdonald & 2 ORs were wounded, Macdonald plus an uninjured NCO and 1 wounded OR returned to allied lines to get help. ( this left 3 men one of whom was wounded near the German trenches) A further patrol of 1 Officer plus 5 ORS went out to look for them but returned without success. The 3 ORS were never found. looking at the nominal roll for the battalion in the same book there are 3 ORs listed as dead on 30 june- all 3 are noted as commemorated on the Thiepval memorial. -so must have been initially reported as missing - then as his medal record card notes presumed dead- then at some point as per the CWGC record "Dead". This strongly points to those 3 men namely Pte Angus ( my Grandfather), Pte Atkinson & Pte Sherwood as being the 3 missing from that patrol led by 2nd Lt macdonald. My next task is to contact the authors to see where the detail they quote re Macdonald's patrol came from .
    regards TED
     
  6. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    That's a great result Ted, look forward to seeing your ongoing research.
     
  7. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Good research Ted!

    Again, likewise my Great Granddad was presumed dead and maybe this is how soldiers were 'labelled' when there was no subsequent news of them and no body.

    The action in which my GG died (presumed) is partially descibed in 'When The Lantern Of Hope Burned Low' (R. Wilfred Callin) 1919, but only really describes what happened to the CO of his "squad" thereafter; he was seriously wounded.

    Please do post again when you have more information.

    Best,

    Steve.
     
  8. Bernhart

    Bernhart Member

    recently bought a book on the somme, gives a day by day account of ever regiment involved from july 1st to end of november,
     
  9. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Hi Ted

    Been away on holiday so a little slow in replying. I don't know where you are up to in terms of your research but the following are all the men of the 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish) listed from SDGW for 30 June 1916. I hope it may help a little?

    Name: Bartholomew Alder
    Birth Place: South Shields
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: Wallsend-On-Tyne
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/154
    Type of Casualty: Died
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    Name: Edward Angus
    Birth Place: North Shields
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: Choppington
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/110
    Type of Casualty: Died
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    Name: Peter Atkinson
    Birth Place: South Shields
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: North Shields
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/656
    Type of Casualty: Died
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    Name: Frederick James Jones
    Birth Place: Bermondsey, Middlesex
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: Newcastle-On-Tyne
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/1732
    Type of Casualty: Died
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    Name: James Mcandrews
    Birth Place: South Shields
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: South Shields
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/717
    Type of Casualty: Killed in action
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

    Name: William Henry Sherwood
    Birth Place: Elswick, Northumberland
    Death Date: 30 Jun 1916
    Death Location: France & Flanders
    Enlistment Location: Newcastle-On-Tyne
    Rank: Private
    Regiment: Northumberland Fusiliers
    Battalion: 22nd Battalion (Tyneside Scottish)
    Number: 22/410
    Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
    Theatre of War: Western European Theatre
     
  10. ted angus

    ted angus Senior Member

    Many thanks , hope you enjoyed your holiday. Can I firstly ask what is SDGW ??

    The Tyneside Scottish book has McAndrews as dieing on 1/7/16 ? and he has a known grave, andby the book Sherwood has a known grave- I obviously misread that one in the book -the print is tiny.

    Your most welcome info therefore gives 4 who died 30/6/16 who have no known grave, so that leaves me scratching my head as 3 were missing from 2nd Lt Macdonalds patrol, the war diary gives 3 as the missing total for the period and now 4 listed as dead in your list who have no known grave ?? Any further help or guidance would be greatly appreciated
    TED
     
  11. Bernhart

    Bernhart Member

    any where listing of the newfoundland regiment and where thier dead are buried? The hospital I work in one of the Doctors had a great uncle who died July 1st, last name furlong
     
  12. Paul Reed

    Paul Reed Ubique MOD

    This is the only Furlong in the Newfoundland Regiment:

    CWGC :: Casualty Details

    His number is low enough to have served at Beaumont Hamel; maybe he was wounded there on 1st July?
     
  13. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    Hi Ted

    SDGW is Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919. In 1921, 81 volumes embracing every Regiment and Corps of the British Army were published listing approximately 635,000 Soldiers and 37,000 Officers who died in the war. It's now available as either a CD-Rom that costs around £250 or via an Ancestry subscription. The records can be searched in many ways e.g all the men who died on a particular day, all the men from a single town or place of enlistment who died etc etc. There are many variations of searches you can do.

    All I can guess at is that one of the four men named and who is listed at Thiepval might have succumbed to his wounds from the earlier 20 man Patrol. It is very much within the realms of possibility that the man was buried but that the location of his grave was lost in the subsequent fighting.

    I would suggest that if you are in the North East then a search in the archives of the local Newspaper for July 1916 onwards would be the way forward. If the paper is like all the others of the time throughout the country then there will be page after page of photos of a majority of the men who fell with a short obituary or detailing them as missing and hopefully, the circumstances in which they were reported missing.

    Good luck

    Jonathan
     
  14. ted angus

    ted angus Senior Member

    Jonathan thank you. I am new to this game, it was only after joining this forum and seeing just how much research material is availible that I decided to try and learn more on my Grandad. I know my Dad and his sisters all tried to find out more but didn't have the facilities we now enjoy. Unfortunately on leaving the RAF after 39 years we decided to settle in Scotland and due to our illhealth raely travel more than a few miles.
    I am wondering how casualty reports were passed back up the chain of command - as the battalion war diaries for WW1 rarely name ORs. Would it be by runner to Brigade HQ ?? so the next question would the Brigade war diary contain ORs names ?/
    thanks

    TED
     
  15. Jonathan Ball

    Jonathan Ball It's a way of life.

    so the next question would the Brigade war diary contain ORs names ?

    I can't answer that question and there is only one way to find out!

    WO95/2459 War Diary, 102nd Brigade Headquarters Jan 1916 - Mar 1917

    Andy (Drew5233) is at the National Archive tomorrow so a quick message to him might be in order for you?

    Cheers

    Jonathan
     
  16. ted angus

    ted angus Senior Member

    Will now have to wait a few days, 3 grand daughters arriving in an hour or so : Help !!

    TED
     
  17. Bernhart

    Bernhart Member

    thanks Paul wiill talk to him, but sounds like right fellow. Is it possible he was killed on the 1st and not found or buried until 1918?
     
  18. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    Deleted - wrong thread!
     
  19. grimmy

    grimmy Guest

    A relative of mine, Pte Norman Fowler Wilson, 16th Bn Manchester Regiment, was KIA that day at Montauban. Buried Dantzig Alley Cemetery.
     
  20. Steve Mac

    Steve Mac Very Senior Member

    A relative of mine, Pte Norman Fowler Wilson, 16th Bn Manchester Regiment, was KIA that day at Montauban. Buried Dantzig Alley Cemetery.

    RIP Pte Norman Fowler Wilson. :poppy:
     

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