The Battle of Rauray (19th June to 2nd July, 1944)

Discussion in 'NW Europe' started by Ramiles, Mar 29, 2015.

  1. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Hi all!

    I'm interested in taking a closer look at the battle of Rauray and wondering if any one has some good ideas as to where to start in?

    Threads, recommended books, links or interesting stories etc. all welcome!

    All the best,

    Rm
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Ramiles

    Good place to start might be where the idiotic Brigadier sent in the 16 DLI with rifles to fend off a panzer Division -
    most of whom were killed including my cousin…

    Cheers
     
  3. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  4. kopite

    kopite Member

    Try "Breaking the Panzers: The Bloody Battle for Rauray" by Kevin Baverstock
     
  5. Swiper

    Swiper Resident Sospan

    Agreed the fight for Rauray was a major engagement which helped trash Rommel's help of loosing his strategic reserve.

    One of the defining moments in the Battle for Normandy.

    Baverstock is simply the best, then JJ How's book on Hill 112, Ian Daglish's book on Epsom, and Tim Saunders on 112 - plenty of reading to be done ;)

    Stoic defence by the Brits and attack by the SS-Panzer Divs that illustrated they were far too cocky.
     
  6. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Kopite, Swiper,

    I've seen a bit of "Breaking the Panzers: The Bloody Battle for Rauray" by Kevin Baverstock" and was after some opinion or votes in it's favour.

    (I nearly called the thread "The Bloody Battle for Rauray" - but I thought I might risk talking only about this book :) )

    If it's too big a "topic" to tackle in "one go" I'd like to hear suggestions on whether to split it up chronologically or by sub-battles or by the actions of those units that were there.

    I want to keep it in the line of cogent summaries though, I'm not writing a Rauray book!

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
  7. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    There were two phases to this battle:
    1. The capture of Rauray by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry et alia
    2. A day or two later, The Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia.

    Nasty little battle including various bits of Panzer Divisions and the German Battlegroup Weidinger. Apparently, after the Germans failed to make the Breakthrough, one German General asked Von Runstedt what they should do to which he apparently replied "make peace you fools". Adolf sacked him soon later only to bring him out of retirement again for the Battle of the Bulge.

    Various books already mentioned. Needless to say, None Had Lances is quite detailed about it. Also a couple of books describing the German view ( can't remember titles offhand but look up the author Helmut Ritgen and Hubert Meyer)....the whole lot being summed up in the somewhat unusual design of Christmas Card for 1944 issued to 49th (West Riding) Infantry Division and featuring the 'Butcher Bears'.

    The Polar Bears by Patrick Delaforce is also quite accurate on this battle!
     
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  8. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Thanks Steve,

    Btw all - there's a tv documentary on "the Panzer" and vets from the Panzertruppe on UK tv Freeview Ch 48 tonight @ 1.15am - makes a change to hear things from behind the other hedge. I'll prob. Rec it to see if it's any good.

    Rm
     
  9. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

  10. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  11. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    This is another of those Normandy battles that everyone but the men who were there seem to have forgotten. It was also a British victory, which may be why some historians don't mention it.

    The offensive phase was not a complete success, because 49th Div did not get all of the Rauray Ridge. The defensive phase more than made up for that disappointment, as the Germans launched their most powerful counterattack of the whole campaign against the salient VIII and XXX Corps had driven into their lines. The counterattack was a complete and very costly failure, as big a flop for the German armor as GOODWOOD was later for the British and even more damaging because the Germans gained no ground and their losses could not be fully replaced. I have read Bowersock and I think it is pretty good, particularly in its account of the repulse of the German armor. The really funny thing about the book, though, is that even as he is describing and praising 70th Brigade's successful defensive tactics, Bowerstock continues to insist on the general tactical inferiority of the British army in Normandy--an inferiority that the body of his work shows to be false.
     
  12. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    I'd say it's tough to decide and everyone has to make up their own mind by listening to the sides and reading well around. Blackadder 4 made me think more about ww1 and then I saw more that it wasn't history though it has great power to move. Talking about defeat and failures is one way to teach and make people learn but it turns a lot of people off because it doesn't explain adequately to the casual observers how we actually won. Nevertheless it helps muchly if mistakes can be explained, and the Germans kept making many of those ;) Were they still guarding against the real attack on Calais at this point? And not wanting to lose their best armour in case this was just a feint and that armour was needed more (up the coast) elsewhere?

    If a commander is ordered to press on he must run into ambushes, if he is too cautious then the enemy can escape. You might learn to be reckless one day and be taught the wisdom of being cautious the next - and be a fool for your efforts, or just unlucky maybe the case, don't loose sight of the ultimate goal though that's the thing. Making out the enemy to be somehow superior is good copy but they didn't actually help us win (we had to do that on our own!) I refer to my earlier point though about "German mistakes". Hitler would ultimately have killed any good general (by fighting him to the death, forcing his suicide or just insulting his general's pride until they could take it no more) as he didn't want to compete (despite a strange view on the purpose of evolution, he willfully selected blond haired, blue eyed people and sent them in their droves fighting battle after meat grinding battle and expected them to thrive?), same went for Stalin too (my way or the highway). Fanatically dying for such is no way to win a war.

    Rauray might be a tough cookie. I'm tempted to try to understand it in some bite sided chunks. Does 2 topics on different parts of Rayray make best sense or might more than that make it better for this one - further suggestion on demarkation boundaries I guess maybe please?? The 2 parts suggested by SDP seem most logical though.

    All the best,

    Rm
     
  13. Ramiles

    Ramiles Researching 9th Lancers, 24th L and SRY

    So as seems most logical (Thanks SDP!) I have split the stages of the "Battle of Rauray" now into:

    The Capture of Rauray by the Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry et alia
    The Capture of Rauray (Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry et alia)

    And....

    The Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia.
    Defence of Rauray by the 24th Lancers, Tyneside Scottish et alia

    Additionally:

    I've also created a third thread for the 24th Lancers - Tessel Wood
    (I'm not entirely sure if this is part of the Battle of Rauray at the mo. but it was nearby, and occured at about the same time).
    24th Lancers - Tessel Wood (c25th June 1944)

    More to come.

    Please follow these threads where most relevant, but if it makes more sense in context and for general comments about both; this thread is still here...

    All the best,

    Rm.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  14. John L Dixon

    John L Dixon Researcher

    I note the interest in Rauray and mentions of Kevin Baverstock's book "Breaking the Panzers". To read the full War Diaries of the 70th Brigade units - including artillery, engineers etc as well as the three Infantry Battalions, have a look at the 70th Brigade Memorial Website at www.newmp.org.uk/70brigade

    Follow the link on the Main Page to "List of Units" and start, I suggest, with 70th Brigade HQ. War Diaries are listed in date order. Pay particular attention to 1st Tyneside Scottish and 11th DLI as far as the Defence of Rauray is concerned - later awarded as a major Battle Honour. Personnel lists can be found under each unit.

    Any queries of comments to me, please, at 70brigade@newmp.org.uk

    Looking forward to hearing from you.
     
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  15. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    John

    Good to see you posting on this thread. You describe yourself as a Researcher and with a clear connection to 70 Brigade. What are your wider interests so we can provide focussed feedback etc

    Steve

    PS: are you any relation of Clive Dixon of 24th Lancers?
     
  16. Mr Jinks

    Mr Jinks Bit of a Cad

    John is ,I believe ,the son of L/Cpl Robert Bagnall Dixon a veteran of 11th Durham Light Infantry and webmaster of the excellent 70 brigade websites he quoted.



    Kyle
     
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  17. PaulE

    PaulE Senior Member

    He is indeed the webmaster of the site , John has been researching 70 Brigade for many years
     
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  18. PaulE

    PaulE Senior Member

    Incidently a new book is currently in prepartion in Normandy by two french Authors who i am assisting with DLI information which will concentrate on Operation Martlet and the Battle of Rauray . Unfortunately Kevins book in many ways due to his understandable concentration and focus on 1 TS missed a superb opportunity to cover the Battle in a detailed way from the viewpoint all the units involved. Not just the Battle against the German Counter offensive but the actual advance south from Fontenay le Pesnel and the intial capture of Rauray and the spur , ring contour 110 .
     
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  19. PaulE

    PaulE Senior Member

    Has anyone seen any further info rergarding the use of 141 RAC Crocodiles at Rauray ?

    DATE: 2 July
    PLACE & PLACE OF OBJECTIVE: RAURAY (Hedgerows)
    NUMBER OF CROCODILES: 3
    QUANTITY OF FUEL USED: 1/4 trailer each
    ENEMY KILLED OR SHOT WHEN RUNNING ABOUT WHEN ON FIRE: 3 estimated
    PRISONERS OF WAR: 5
    QUALITY OF ENEMY: Good S.S.
    REMARKS: Small job. No Infantry. Snipers "flushed out". (49 DIVISION)
     
  20. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Never seen this referenced before.

    Shows the truly gruesome side of War.
     

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