the banishment of the Sudeten Germans

Discussion in 'Germany' started by FschJgBtl 261 Lebach, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    As it states, 3 million Sudetenland Germans were expelled by the Czechs in the immediate post war era to Western Gernmany.This part of Bohemia was formerly Austrian territory and was awarded to Czechoslovakia by the Treaty of Saint Germain en Laye (a western suberb of Paris) in 1919.The Sudetens were paying for the deeds of those, led by Konrad Henlein,leader of the Nazi Sudeten German Party who led an extensive campaign against the Czechoslovakian government which it falsely accused of suppressing the German minority in the Sudetenland.The party which was formed in 1935 was heavily subsidised by Ribbentrop and the German Foreign Ministry and from its forming had a clear objective of winning the hearts and minds of the Sudenten Germans.The only long faces when the Germans marched into the Sudetenland were those of the Czechs.The Sudeten Germans welcomed the Third Reich columns with flowers at their feet.

    However Hitler real interest was the amagamation of the German speaking populations,extending what would be known as the Greater German Reich and the seizure of Czeckoslovakia allowed him to gain the Czech industrial and munitions area at Pilsen.(I do not think he was interested in the Pilsen)

    Then came the Munich Agreement in September 1938 which gave the territory to Germany without Czechoslovakia being in the negotiations. Hitler was not satisfied with that and without a murmur from Great Britain and France then annexed the rest of country in March 1939 deeming it to be a German protectorate.

    Czechslovakia was savagely treated by Hitler,its population being treated as untermenchen and its language suppressed.Although two wrongs do not make a right,the suffferings of those Germans forceabily expelled from Czeckoslovakia cannot be compared with the suffering of the Czechslovakian population at the hands of the Nazi.

    In May 1945,the Czechoslavian government decided that in future there would never again be a "Sudetenland Question" for there would be no German population in Czechslovakia to adverse affect its sovereignty.

    For the 3 million Germans who were expelled to Western Germany,they made up a depleted population and eventually must have had some contribution to the West German economic boom in the 1950s.Perhaps an era, that in the end,ended well.
     
  2. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    It was a very similar situation in what is now Western Poland with the Germans being forcibly expelled. The main difference being that the area that is now Western Poland was originally part of Germany whereas the Sudetenland was not.
     
  3. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    It was a very similar situation in what is now Western Poland with the Germans being forcibly expelled. The main difference being that the area that is now Western Poland was originally part of Germany whereas the Sudetenland was not.

    It has to be said that loss of East Prussia etc was the result of the settlement of the Second World War.Post war,the Soviet Union took territory in the east of Poland and Poland had its western border pushed into Germany,hence the loss of the pre 1939 Germany territory.One of the Soviet aims for its invasion of eastern Poland in 1939 was to ensure that the Soviets had a buffer territory to serve them in the event of further threats from the west and this remained the case in 1945 and to the present day.

    During the war,the German administration settled Poland with those of German descent from territories in the east in accordance with the policy of Germanising Polish territory.Other settlers were Germans from the German heartland who were also part of the Germanisation policy.They and the involuntary settlers from the east were principally farmers who took possession of farms whose Polish owners were ejected.

    When the war ended,these settlers were expelled to Germany but one of the problems was that Germans from the east,some had been in east for over 60 years was that they had lost their mother tongue and found it difficult to assimulate to post war Germany.(Apparently some Germans had settled in the Ukraine in 1880 and then, as Germans of German descent, were forced to settle in Poland.A hare-brained idea of Himmlers)

    I think the present problem,and I think it may have prevailed since the fall of communism is that "Poles" of Germans descent, left in the former eastern Germany and quite happy to remain there, have disturbed the ethic Polish population by the erection of war memorials to Third Reich dead.
     
  4. laufer

    laufer Senior Member

  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Looking further into this,the settlement of Germans or those of German descent, post 1945 was sanctioned by the Allied Powers.The numbers of those moved into Germany has been reported to be approximately 11.5 million.
     
  6. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    If the choice were forcible removal or staying inside the Iron Curtain among a hostile population then it would be not much of a choice...
     
  7. Although two wrongs do not make a right,the suffferings of those Germans forceabily expelled from Czeckoslovakia cannot be compared with the suffering of the Czechslovakian population at the hands of the Nazi


    there is no need to relativize these crimes against civilians by always comparing it to the outrageous crimes of the nazis and their cooperators. its often ignored that german population suffered badly under brutish treatment, too. and yes I do know that the blood toll in the east has caused the persecution of anything that was german. but how the victors haphazardly agonised the people should not be relativated but seen equally. from an objective point of view there can be no separation between the crimes which are done to people from different countrys. and in my opinion the excess of czech population imediately after the war ist just another addition of dastardly crimes against defenceless men, women and children.
     
  8. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Separating all from everything, it has to be said that the life of the average German in wartime - even without the bombings - wasn't exactly a bed of roses, what with deprivation and an active 'internal affairs' crew. I'm currently reading "Wages of Destruction", Adam Tooze, an economical history of the III Reich since inception. A woeful tale of mismanagement, lies and violence against the German people, never minding the rest.

    Goering appalled at the Kristallnacht because of the effect on the balance of payments caused by the whole sale destruction of property!
     
  9. Separating all from everything, it has to be said that the life of the average German in wartime - even without the bombings - wasn't exactly a bed of roses, what with deprivation and an active 'internal affairs' crew. I'm currently reading "Wages of Destruction", Adam Tooze, an economical history of the III Reich since inception. A woeful tale of mismanagement, lies and violence against the German people, never minding the rest.

    Goering appalled at the Kristallnacht because of the effect on the balance of payments caused by the whole sale destruction of property!

    is it a good read up to now?? I hope that the opinion will get through, that "the germans were not only contraveners but also victims." or better

    "there were german contraveners and there were german victims"
     
  10. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    I'm up to the Sudeten and the Anschlüss. A tale of incompetence, overlapping responsibilities, crossed doctrines, corruption, self-agrandisement, etc. Hjalmar Schacht the willing technocrat, Goering the inflated ego ignorant and profiteer. The only way to survive economically would be through conquest, when conquests stopped (and badly managed at that) that would be the end. At the time of the Anschlüss German gold reserves stood at 5 ton, Austrian at 41 ton, hurrah!

    The economy was definitely not working for the welfare of the German people. Employments were fixed, immobile, just as in the time of emperor Dioclecian. Your assets in gold had to be surrendered to the State.

    If they behaved like this to their own people imagine how they regarded the occupied Untermenschen !
     
  11. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    there is no need to relativize these crimes against civilians by always comparing it to the outrageous crimes of the nazis and their cooperators. its often ignored that german population suffered badly under brutish treatment, too. and yes I do know that the blood toll in the east has caused the persecution of anything that was german. but how the victors haphazardly agonised the people should not be relativated but seen equally. from an objective point of view there can be no separation between the crimes which are done to people from different countrys. and in my opinion the excess of czech population imediately after the war ist just another addition of dastardly crimes against defenceless men, women and children.



    In May 1945,the Czechoslavian government decided that in future there would never again be a "Sudetenland Question" for there would be no German population in Czechslovakia to adverse affect its sovereignty.

    For the 3 million Germans who were expelled to Western Germany,they made up a depleted population and eventually must have had some contribution to the West German economic boom in the 1950s.Perhaps an era, that in the end,ended well.


    Sorry, but given the time period involved, it is relevant to discuss Nazi crimes in association with these acts. The Germans violated the sovereignty of many countries, cities and citizens.

    The Anchluss was greeted with cheers in Austria, the same happened in the Sudetenland. That was not forgotten, and the repatriation of German people back to Germany after the war was an effort to separate people
    to prevent it from happening again....some 11 to 14 million in all.

    And, you may notice, it hasn't happened again.


    You are trying to argue a point that we may disagree with TODAY only,
    and in a revisionist light.

    Of course, with todays situation in the EU, if the Germans want the Sudetendland again, they need only come and BUY it this time, thanks.
     
  12. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    So you're saying ethnic cleansing has it's good points, right?
     
  13. martin14

    martin14 Senior Member

    So, you are a revisionist too, then ?
     
  14. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    there is no need to relativize these crimes against civilians by always comparing it to the outrageous crimes of the nazis and their cooperators. its often ignored that german population suffered badly under brutish treatment, too. and yes I do know that the blood toll in the east has caused the persecution of anything that was german. but how the victors haphazardly agonised the people should not be relativated but seen equally. from an objective point of view there can be no separation between the crimes which are done to people from different countrys. and in my opinion the excess of czech population imediately after the war ist just another addition of dastardly crimes against defenceless men, women and children.

    While the German civilians suffered at the hands of the victors,it reflected the fact that the very first victims of modern warfare are likely to be civilians of both belligerents.The question of German civilian casualties is often raised nearly 70 years after the events when the hardships of these civiliians are being discussed.Many are now expressing a view that the German people suiffered unneccessary at the hands of the victors and are attempting to equate this with the illtreatment and murder of civilian populations in German occupied territories.Nothing could be further from the truth and the acts of both belligerents can be separated when they are looked at rationally.

    Until the "Haque Regulations Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land" which was adopted by the Hague Peace Conference in 1907.(Notice it did not anticipate war by air which I believe the Italians were the first to employ in 1911).Nevertheless this international regulation formed the foundation their obligation to civilians that belligerents would follow in the in time of war.

    The important aspect of these international regulations is to be found in Article 46 which provided that "family honour and rights,the lives of persons and private property,as well religious convictions and practices must be respected".Now if you look at the operations of German forces throughout their occupied territories in the Second World War,you will find wholesale breaches of that article,directed,encouraged and motivated by the then German state and its military and administrative structures.For this reason,I would say the treatment of civilians can be made separate in comparsion.

    The effect of the then German state domestic and foriegn policies was that millions of civilians were deported from their homes into forced labour and slavery.Thousands of hostages,reprisal prisoners and prisoners were put to death,the latter without so much as a trial.If there were trials established, the outcome was rigged and execution followed.Towns and villages were raised to the ground and don't forget that for Oradour sur Glane,there were 600 villages and their inhabitants put to the sword in the Soviet Union in the same manner.

    Millions of Jews were exterminated including Germany's own Jewish population.Thousands of innocent civilians were subject to mass executions and some were lucky to have been carried off to concentration camps and the like.Those who were regarded as "untermenchen" were worked to death to support a German war economy which was quickly found not to be self supportive from its German population.Foodstuffs were seized from occupied teriritories to the point that those civilians in these occupied countries were left to exist at starvation level.The same policy applied to raw materials and machinery,all plundered to maintain the Gernman war economy.Then there were the art lovers of the Third Reich who systematically arranged the seizure of art treasures and furniture from occupied countries to add to their own collections.These were not "ad hoc" acts by individuals,although people such as Goring was prominent in looting occupied countries for his own sake,it was the then German state policy.

    The misery and suffering of the German people can be firmly put where it belongs and that is with the Hitler regime.The first stone was cast in 1934 when the leadership German armed forces agreed to state an oath of loyalty to Hitler.This was followed by the failure of the military leadership in 1938 to dispose of Hitler when they knew that there would be a price to pay when they were made aware of the intentions to extend east in the name of the Greater German Reich.Hitler could not have continued without the support of the military structure and the proposal and act to enforce a coup d'etat in July 1944 did not appear to some to be vigorous enough.

    For the German civilian.It was he who was entwined in Nazism.The people who voted for Hitler knew who they were voting for.They supported him morally and knew what Nazism stood for.Germany could never recovered the disputed territories without war and although Hitler could disguise his intentions until March 1939,others in Europe finally had to think logically and rationally that what Hitler was about.He was about war.

    For the German people,in Germany's decline from 1943 when many,we are told knew that Germany would lose the war,found themselves unable to see a satisfactory end to their suffering.They were in hands of an irrational leader who was determined to take his adopted country down with him irrespective of the harm done to the country's people and its infrastucture.

    It cost Europe dear to reinstate democracy in Germany and that was only one half.In monetary terms,it cost Britain 13 million pounds a day to wage war and by the end, the country was near to bankruptcy.On the other hand,Germany could rise from the ashes heavily subsidised by Marshall Aid which Britain could not draw on.
     
    Za Rodinu likes this.
  15. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Harry

    May I second that ?

    Beautifully put.

    Ron
     
  16. I guess no one did get my point of this thread. I started it reffering to that evidence video I posted....
     
  17. Gerard

    Gerard Seelow/Prora

    If I may be allowed to interject on this thread, I see no problem in talking and discussing this extremely important and relevant subject. There is of course a danger in talking about this that one can unwillingly slip into the revisionists shoes by using it to show that the Allies were as bad as the Nazis, they werent. And lets get that one right out of here. Equally it is unhelpful to ignore these incidents by roaring out "they got what they deserved" If I may quote "A Terrible Revenge" by Alfred-Maurice de Zayas: "All victims of injustice deserve our respect. The Crimes committed by the Nazis and Soviets against Eastern Europe in the years 1939 to 1945 move us to existential identification with them. The merciless revenge that poured over the entire German Civilian population of Eastern Europe, in particular those sad years of 1945 to 1948 shold also awaken compassion, for in either case the common people, all were victims of politics and politicians. In judging these events, nationality does not matter. Pain and suffering has no nationality. Nor does murder. Every crime is reprehensible, regardless of the nationality of the victim - or of the victimizer."

    Now I am not an apologist, nor a Nazi sympathizer but I have studied the Red Army's advance into the 3rd Reich and I do agree with the above. You may believe that the German's "deserved it" but that still does not mean that what happened should be brushed under the carpet. Equally, we should not use these events to try and push some loathsome agenda that the Allies were somehow on the same spectrum in terms of atrocities.

    I do understand that the veterans on this forum may not agree with me and that is their right, they fought for a better future for all of us. Indeed they are part of the reason that we are able to discuss this!

    But these events did happen and it was brutal and cruel and tragic. To say that you agree with this statement does not make you a Nazi sympathiser, no more that saying that the Russians committed atrocities makes you a freedom loving democrat. You are just calling it as it is.
     
    Heimbrent likes this.
  18. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    So, you are a revisionist too, then ?

    1) Define revisionist.

    2) It is my contention that Germany got a whole lot more than they bargained for when they gave 44% to the NSDAP in 1933.

    3) It looks like you are green enough on this forum to cast such aspersions on me. Physically it is unlikely but I would not appreciate it if you called me that in my face.
     

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