"That is the SS, they are not our sort"

Discussion in 'Axis Units' started by Drew5233, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Personal account by F Harbour filed in the Warwicks Missing Men File.

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    CL1 and Smudger Jnr like this.
  2. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Andy

    The next time we have an SS "Wannabe" on this forum asking for advice on how to dress like one of these bxxxxxxs at a re-enactment, please re-post the above file.

    Lest we forget !

    Ron
     
    Capt Bill likes this.
  3. sebfrench76

    sebfrench76 Senior Member

    And this docu is 1940 dated.....
    The SS had just been created as an army corp,aren't they??
    "valor doesn't wait the years" or something like that,no?
    Disgusting...And some say"they did that kind of things on the eastern front,against red soldiers,that were as bad as them...."
    What about these Brits soldiers??Did they had monsters habits??
     
  4. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Andy

    The next time we have an SS "Wannabe" on this forum asking for advice on how to dress like one these bxxxxxxs at a re-enactment, please re-post the above file.

    Lest we forget !

    Ron

    Andy,

    Really hard hitting evidence that cannot be denied.
    Well posted.

    Ron,
    I agree entirely with your comments.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  5. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Of course.postwar,there was considerable efforts to rehabilitate the SS in West Germany by the new West German Government.Conrad Adenauer,described as the father of the New Germany and himself lucky not to lose his life during the "Night of the Long Knives" sought to unify West Germany by declaring that the SS fought as normal soldiers.Despite the Nurnberg edict that the SS and its many sub branches were deemed to be criminal organisations and therefore illegal, SS reunions although banned took place openingly without intervention from the Government.

    The SS leadership insisted that they fought no differently to the Wehrmacht who despite their denial were also guilty of excesses in the field,especially on the Eastern Front

    However they are those who put the record rather simply as,the Wehrmacht fought while the SS murdered.

    Talking about reenactment,you will never find dressing up in SS uniform is accepted in the countries overrun by Nazism,countries who experienced the special treatment of these people.
     
  6. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    A very harrowing account. I wonder what the extra information Harbour had was and whether he had the opportunity of reporting it? Perhaps his POW liberation questionnaire might shed more light, if he completed one.

    Could this be the Private Williams mentioned? CWGC - Casualty Details
     
  7. Jakob Kjaersgaard

    Jakob Kjaersgaard Senior Member

    Andy

    The next time we have an SS "Wannabe" on this forum asking for advice on how to dress like one these bxxxxxxs at a re-enactment, please re-post the above file.

    Lest we forget !

    Ron

    Well said Ron.
     
  8. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    "That is the SS, they are not our sort"

    No of course not, the Heer just shot Black PoWs from the French Colonial units, as we've mentioned on here before.
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Hot air manufacturer

    Andy

    The next time we have an SS "Wannabe" on this forum asking for advice on how to dress like one of these bxxxxxxs at a re-enactment, please re-post the above file.

    Lest we forget !

    Ron

    Motion seconded.

    No of course not, the Heer just shot Black PoWs from the French Colonial units, as we've mentioned on here before.

    Looking into another front, you may add non-blacks like Russians, Ukranians, Poles, Yugoslavians, Balts, etc., etc., you name it.
     
  10. ronald

    ronald Senior Member

  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Andy
    thank you for posting
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

  13. Harry Ree

    Harry Ree Very Senior Member

    Obviously an accurate note on Pte Harbour's battlefield experience on meeting the over confident master race.

    After experiencing that Pte Harbour is recorded as dying in 1954,a relative short life,I would think.
     
  14. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

  15. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    Andy thanks for posting

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    I'm not sure Pte Harbour is a Pte. I'm still reading the 2 Warwicks Missing Men file and I think he is mentioned by another as a Gunner. That would fit with his account as a RA Regt was driving through Wormhout heading for Dunkirk when they were ambushed.

    I'll do some more digging and glad the letter was of interest.
     
  17. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Might as well add Peccavi's transcription, with additional note - enhances Googlability:
    Since this Thread is more concerned with the massacre than the battle thought you might be interested in the stories of two of the Cheshire Regiment survivors of the massacre. Both soldiers have been mentioned on the sister thread but here is their full written story:
    Pte Humphreys.
    Pte Joseph Humphreys got in touch with Regimental H.Q. of the Cheshire Regiment to say that he had been present at the massacre at Wormhoudt. Humphreys was transferred to the 22nd from the Manchester Regiment in November of 1939, and in January of 1990 he told his story 'in a calm and concise way, without exaggeration but with obvious emotion to an officer of the Regiment.

    The withdrawal continued to Dunkirk where Pte Humphreys' section spent a few days resting before being ordered into the town itself. They had hoped to be evacuated from Dunkirk but this was not to be the case. As they reached a water trough in the centre of the town, the platoon commander, Lt Glasspool, received orders that they were to go back to fight a rear-guard action.

    The Company moved back from Dunkirk and established themselves at Wormhoudt on the 27th May Lt Glasspool sited the gun positions and told Pte Humphreys' section to dig in at the base of a hedge in an open field facing out towards the supposed enemy positions. They began digging but on the suggestion of Pte Stubbs, who was an experienced regular soldier, moved their gun pit to the far side of the hedge where they had a much better position. By dusk they had dug in and camouflaged the position. They settled down to await the arrival of the enemy.

    All was quiet until the following morning at dawn when the Germans opened an attack with some heavy mortar fire. Pte Humphreys' section could see numbers of Germans in the distance, moving around with civilians whom he took to be the fifth columnists they had all been warned about. The last order the section had received from Lt Glasspool was to stand and fight to the "last man, last round".

    ( Lt Glasspool then obviously went off to see to other positions and was never seen again).

    Sgt Weston, the Section Commander, decided that they were being surrounded and the position was becoming untenable. He ordered the men to disable or destroy their guns as best they could and withdraw. The gun firing mechanisms were removed and the section withdrew, using the ditch at the base of the hedge as cover.

    The little group worked their way up the ditch and quickly became mixed up with both Cheshires and other troops who were all withdrawing under fire. The enemy maintained a heavy fire. It was a desperate situation and inevitably they were surrounded and outnumbered and forced to surrender. The Germans disarmed and searched them but did not take their possessions.

    The prisoners were marched back to the edge of Wormhoudt where they were shut into a brick cow shed. There followed a speech from a German officer which included the usual 'for you the war is over, if you behave you will be treated well'. Eventually about 40 men gathered in the cow shed where they had a brief rest.

    The group was then taken out of the cow shed at gunpoint and marched across a ploughed field. Some of the German soldiers told the prisoners "not to worry" as they were going to a prison camp and had nothing to fear. After the brief march across the field, the prisoners were herded into a small wooden and corrugated iron barn or shed in the field. They had not been in the barn for more than a few moments when the enemy called for five men to come out. Five men went out and were lined up by the Germans and shot dead. There was consternation inside the little barn. Another five were called for Humphreys could not remember whether it was 5 or 3 men who went) and were also lined up and shot. A third 5 were called out and shot dead. No one moved when the next 5 were called. The enemy shooting party were obviously infuriated by this refusal to obey orders. They fanned out around the barn and those near the door threw in stick grenades. When the grenades went off the Germans began firing into the shed through the openings and through the wooden and tin sides of the shed.

    Those inside dived to the ground and attempted to protect themselves as best they could. People huddled together in the centre of the barn. The noise inside was terrible - mingled with the detonation of grenades and the gunfire were the cries of agony of the wounded, the curses of those who were still defiant and the prayers of those who expected to die Humphreys says he remembers all those round him saying the Lord's Prayer over and over again. The firing continued for some time and Humphreys found himself in the centre of the barn under a pile of his dead and wounded comrades. He lay still, face down, under the bodies for some time after the firing had stopped and does not know whether any Germans subsequently re-entered the barn.

    At this point he realised that he had sustained shrapnel wounds in the left leg.

    After a while Humphreys climbed out from under the bodies because he could hear Tug Wilson, one of his section, crying out for help. He couldn't see where Wilson was and found himself with two other men who got up next to him. They were Londoners but he was not sure which Regiment they were from. The three men found an opening in the tin wall of the barn and crawled out. There was no one there and the three decided to get away and try to get some help for those who were still alive. They got into a ditch next to the barn. The ditch was full of water and heavily overgrown with brambles. The three men crawled away from the barn for about 300 yards and stopped to take stock of the situation. On looking out over the edge of the ditch they could see a farmhouse a short distance away across the fields. The two Londoners were all for going across to the house for help and argued that it seemed to be all clear. Pte Humphreys did not agree and after a brief discussion the Londoners left the ditch whilst Humphreys remained in cover. They set off at a trot across the fields towards the house and had not gone far when they were cut down by bursts of automatic fire. Two German soldiers appeared from the direction of the farmhouse and came towards the two dead Londoners. Pte Humphreys, on seeing their approach, wormed his way deep into the brambles in the ditch and lay perfectly still.

    The two Germans inspected the ditch after checking the two bodies but did not discover Humphreys.Humphreys remained motionless in the ditch and soon lost consciousness. When he came to he had rolled into the bottom of the ditch and was almost totally submerged in muddy water. It was now dark and he decided to try to get away and rejoin the retreating British forces. He crawled up the ditch until he came to a road, crossed the road and took cover in a field on the far side. In the distance he could see the lights of a town (which turned out to be Cassel). He made off towards the lights hoping to find someone to help those who were wounded and still lying in the barn.

    At dawn he realized that he must have spent most of the night unconscious in the ditch. He travelled cautiously throughout the next day going across country and making best use of cover. He did not see any Germans all day. He finally arrived at Cassel where he noticed a tank on a street corner on the outskirts. Not being able to make out what sort of tank it was (and therefore whether it was German or British) he skirted round the town and approached it from the other side where he found British soldiers who turned out to be Cheshires.

    He was taken to the unit's Company Commander (he thinks it was probably A Company) and after a brief interview was sent with a sergeant as a guide to see the Brigadier. He explained what had happened in the barn and how he had got away but the Brigadier said that they were withdrawing that evening and there was nothing that they could do to help. Pte Humphreys remembers him saying: "You're very lucky but I'm sorry, we're moving out at midnight". Pte Humphreys went back to the Cheshire Company where he was fed and given a rifle and a steel helmet. He moved off that evening with the Company. There were a number of stragglers from other units attached to it. The following day they came under another heavy attack and after a brief fight were ordered to split up into small groups and make for Dunkirk. The situation soon became confused with small groups of soldiers heading in all directions to get away as best they could.

    Humphreys and a group of about eight Cheshires hid in a small Nissen hut. A Frenchman came into the hut and said that he would go and find them some food, but they did not trust him, so they moved off straight away into a nearby high sided lane. Shortly after scrabbling into the lane they were surrounded by a squad of Germans using motorbike and sidecar combinations and forced to surrender.

    The group was taken to a nearby field where there were a number of Bren Gun carriers being driven around by laughing Germans who were thoroughly enjoying themselves. They were put into the back of a truck and driven to a nearby town. The following day the prisoners were loaded into another truck and driven off. After a while the truck-load encountered a huge column of prisoners. The group was taken off the truck and fallen in with the column. After some three weeks of marching and truck journeys Pte Humphreys arrived at STALAG 8 in Lamsdorf where he spent most of the rest of the war.

    Pvt Harbour

    The following was written by Pte F. Harbour (died 1954) in a letter he wrote to the investigating committee of the War Crime.
    'On the 28th May 1940 I was travelling in a 30 cwt truck which was driven by Sgt Thompson, with 19 other soldiers when we were ambushed. Tanks cut us off from both sides of the road. They set the truck on fire, only two of us survived intact, the others including Ptes McKenzie and Williams were burnt to death. The driver was badly wounded. He with about eight others were placed in front of the cowshed into which I was placed. I found between fifty and sixty other British inside. A German officer and SS troops arrived shortly after. He came to the shed and said (in English) are you ready, after which he ordered his troops to fire on us. They used tommy guns and stick bombs. When they ceased firing, all who were left alive were ordered to come out in batches of 5 only. On emerging, after marching seven paces they were fired on and shot in the back. The Germans used Tommy Guns which were used from a position near the door out of which our men had come. One batch stopped and lit cigarettes before going forward, knowing it would be their last.

    I was going out with a batch but was pulled back as I made six. On getting back a Gunner said, we are not going out without a fight, when they called for the next batch nobody would move. The Germans then started spraying us with Tommy guns and throwing Stick bombs in. They then left us all for dead. On May 31st two German A.A. gunners found us by accident, they reported having found us and shortly after the German Red Cross took care of us. They first of all asked us where our arms were and when we told them what had happened to us they said that is the SS they are not our sort. I must say that we got fair treatment from the German Red Cross'.

    In a supplementary note, written on the 23rd June 1944, Harbour adds:-

    'Privates McKenzie and Williams were burnt to death in the truck that was driven by Sgt Thompson of my Regiment (D6 lorry of D Company). They were my friends previous to being taken by the Germans. Pte Daley1 [R Warwicks] 'and Sgt Thompson were the only other survivors. Sgt. Thompson was badly wounded in the leg when the Germans fired on the truck. Daley and I pulled him out and dressed his wounds, as best we could. The Germans then came and told us to carry him across a field to the barn. On arrival we found about 70 other British, mostly of Daley's Regiment' [ Royal Warwicks]. 'Sgt Thompson was killed when the Germans fired on us'.

    In a further note, written in August of 1944, Pte Harbour listed a further survivor Pte J Robinson.

    Note - Humphreys was in 13 Platoon, as were Harbour (ex reservist with Lincoln Regiment) and Lance Sargeant Thompson (ex-reservist with Green Howards). Pte Robinson was in 15 Platoon (possibly South Section on Cassel Road)
    McKenzie and Williams have never been identified.


    PS I have never seen Pte Wilson mentioned as a barn victim.
     
  18. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Thank you for posting this, Drew. It's good to be reminded of what the war was really about.

    Sebag-Montefiore's book on Dunkirk has a lot on Wormhoudt, Le Paradis, and other atrocities by the Germans in 1940 (including a little gem by Rommel himself). Wilhelm Mohnke, evidently the man most responsible at Wormhoudt, played a leading part in 1944 in the murder of Canadian and British POWs by 12th SS at Abbey Ardenne and Chateau d'Audrieu. I'd call that a pattern. SS Totenkopf, the perpetrators at Le Paradis, had just gotten a whipping by 50th Div at Arras and again on the La Bassee Canal, so they wanted to get their own back.

    The currently accepted view of British troops in the war is that they felt no resentment against the Germans, but I don't entirely buy that. Lots of 50th Div men saw how the Germans murdered civilians and bombed red crosses in 1940, and such things shocked and infuriated them like nothing else. Bill Cheall of 6th Green Howards decided then that the Germans were 'a callous and ruthless enemy,' Stan Hollis began to cut notches in his gun for every German he killed, and even a senior professional like Colonel Percy of 9th DLI lost his temper when he saw how the Germans shelled and bombed the refugees.
     
  19. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Thank you for posting this, Drew. It's good to be reminded of what the war was really about.

    Sebag-Montefiore's book on Dunkirk has a lot on Wormhoudt, Le Paradis, and other atrocities by the Germans in 1940 (including a little gem by Rommel himself). Wilhelm Mohnke, evidently the man most responsible at Wormhoudt, played a leading part in 1944 in the murder of Canadian and British POWs by 12th SS at Abbey Ardenne and Chateau d'Audrieu. I'd call that a pattern. SS Totenkopf, the perpetrators at Le Paradis, had just gotten a whipping by 50th Div at Arras and again on the La Bassee Canal, so they wanted to get their own back.

    The currently accepted view of British troops in the war is that they felt no resentment against the Germans, but I don't entirely buy that. Lots of 50th Div men saw how the Germans murdered civilians and bombed red crosses in 1940, and such things shocked and infuriated them like nothing else. Bill Cheall of 6th Green Howards decided then that the Germans were 'a callous and ruthless enemy,' Stan Hollis began to cut notches in his gun for every German he killed, and even a senior professional like Colonel Percy of 9th DLI lost his temper when he saw how the Germans shelled and bombed the refugees.

    Many thanks for your comments but careful what you say about 50 Div. thats a delicate subject on here ;)
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    A brief note from Albert (Bert) Evans on the subject taken from the same file. Bert was probably the most well known and remembered of the survivors of the massacre.

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