Sorry chaps she's done it again. An exciting find for sure we just found out that my great Aunt was married before she met my great Uncle Jack......now mention of this was in the family what so ever so a bit of surprise........even more that he was a member of 617 squadron First of my wife want to know in the easiest explanation what the title (warrent officer) means and what his role would be in RAF I have no idea myself I know it was above NCO and bellow an officer but that it perhaps one of you herberts could let us know:p Here's the rest of the details and any idea how I can find out how he died.. did he fly or was he killed on the ground?? Casualty Details Name: WELCH, JOHN LAWRENCE Initials: J L Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Warrant Officer Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve Unit Text: 617 Sqdn. Age: 23 Date of Death: 15/09/1943 Service No: 744932 Awards: D F M Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. T. L. Welch, of Chesham Bois, Buckinghamshire; husband of E. M. Welch, of Cranwell, Lincolnshire. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 134. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL
Do you know what class warrant officer? It will either be 1 or 2. I don't know if they had WO air crew but if he's ground crew WO 1 would most likely be boots and hair cuts (Army RSM) a WO2 could be anything from being in charge of a type of stores (RQMS Army) to being if memory serves me well being in charge of a 'Flight' (SSM or CSM Army). That should get you started. I think the key first of all is to identify if he was ground or air crew mate. Andy
I found 8 casualties listed from the initial search for 617 Squadron on that date. All commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial. 001 FORT J 49575 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE 002 HATTON W 1013557 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 003 HILL V 1315729 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 004 MALTBY DJH 60335 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 005 NICHOLSON V 1144183 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 006 SIMMONDS HT 1248156 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 007 STONE AJ 1311959 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE 008 WELCH JL 744932 617 SQDN 15/09/1943 ROYAL AIR FORCE VOLUNTEER RESERVE Wouldn't mind betting that they were all together.
Here you go....I think this may reveal quite a lot (I just don't want to trawl through it all myself) http://www.dambusters.org.uk/docs/recordbook.pdf
The fact that he is on the Memorial and not in a Cemetery as such suggests lost in battle. Hers some further info http://www.dambusters.org.uk/docs/recordbook.pdf (see Page 49 and 53) Each aircraft also carried an extra gunner, to operate the mid-upper gun turret. WO John Welch was allocated to David's crew, so there were eight people aboard when they took off. Last flight
The date of death coincides with an aborted raid on the Ems -Dortmund Canal in which a Lancaster flown by David Maltby for an unknown reason crashed into the Channel. His body was washed up later but the rest of the crew were never recovered. Will try to find the names of the crew. Well and truly beaten to it. Saved me a job. I to visited dambuster.org.uk
JW Lawrence does not appear to have been on the plane piloted by D Maltby that was lost that night, so the RAF experts need to be called in. There were 8 casualties, which are listed on page 55 of the link Phil refers to above. Ignore most of this (except the bit in bold and underlined above) and skip to post 12 of this thread. Brain dead.
Here you go....I think this may reveal quite a lot (I just don't want to trawl through it all myself) http://www.dambusters.org.uk/docs/recordbook.pdf Am I missing something here? Just checked the record book above for that dat and know of them are listed. Drew, only the pilot is listed in the Doc.
I scrolled further down for the summary in the page '60's' it lists all the crew and I couldn't see him. Ignore me..........The smoke has cleared and I can see him now
Guys, He was awarded the DFM which was gazetted on the 16th April 1943, it has him as a Flight Sergeant and with 218 Squadron. As you can guess he will be Air Crew... Donnie
I misquoted his name and have been calling him JW Lawrence. He was on that plane that was lost, W/O John Lawrence Welch. I have been on this computer far too long today. Apologies.
Thats a lot of information in a very quick time many thanks.... My great aunt Ena was one of the few woman that worked on Lancaster engines I know that much as that is where she met her second my great uncle jack Craig who was a fitter as well on Lanc's......they were married around Amersham so I would also like to find out what airfields around there had bombers.....in a twist of fate they finished there service at RAF Lynham where our boys are coming in now....and they owned before handing it down to there son Graham ( my 2nd cousin ) the car garage in Hillmarten.... One again many thanks I will have a good look and see what else I can find... Update found out he was mid upper gunner which is pretty cool Lee
From BCL Vol.4 W R. Chorley 14-15 September 1943 617 Squadron. Lancaster III JA981 KC-J Op: Ladbergen S/L. D J H. Maltby DSO DFC + Sgt. W. Hatton + F/S. V. Nicholson DFM + F/O. J. Fort DFC + F/S. A J. Stone + F/S. V. Hill + W/O. J L. Welch DFM + Sgt. H T. Simmonds + Took off 2350 hrs from Coningsby carrying a 12,000 lb HC bomb and set course for the Dortmund-Ems Kanal near Ladbergen. Recalled, but for reasons not known crashed 0040 hrs into the sea 8 miles NE of Cromer, Norfolk. S/L Maltby is buried at Wickhambreaux, Kent; his crew are commemorated on the Runnymede Memorial. With the exception of W/O. Welch, this crew had made the final attack on the Mohne Dam.
Only logged on late today and missed this nice investigation. Well done to all and a very interesting post. Regards Tom
You may want to contact the chap that runs this site: Dambusters I spoke to him last year when I was walking the dog at Derwent Res. 617 trained there before the attack and he has a museum in one of the dams towers with more memorabilia than you can shake a large stick at.
Thanks all very interesting reading..... As WO Welch was the added 8th man of the crew he would have been picked from a pool of aircrew or taken from another or were they volunteers ? Does any one know who his usual pilot was ? how would I find out ? What it comes down to as they were such a well known and publicly known squadron there must be a fair chance of getting a picture of his Lancaster and the crew together... Lee
I suspect the chap in post 18 will be able to help you Lee. Here's a shot of inside his museum: He even has a bouncing bomb and one of the wheels from a 617 Sqn Lancaster
