I know this may be a 'How long is a piece of string' question, but I will put if forward anyway to those who know far more of the subject than I. TODAY, given the top 4 MBTs in operational service, and the top 4 anti-tank missiles, which comes out on top? Is there a clear winner in the never ending race? Is one invulnerable or is one unbeatable? Thanks, John.
ozjohn39 really good question - as an old Tank man I asked a similar question of a friend who is a Lt Col in the RAMC - my question was "how do you treat Tank casualties to-day in Iraq etc" his reponse really floored me as he said - "we don't get many of those as if a missile hits them - the crew are usually vaporised " ! Cheers
Challi 2 far superior to the what most think to be the No.1 tank- M1 Abrams.7 See the Iraq thread-Theres quite a few pictures of Challenger 2's even one or two of a M1 Abrams attacked by a Cobra according to rumour control. Tom the only casualties in Challenger 2's in Iraq were from blue on blues and not all the crews was killed. The Iraqi's had nothing to knock out a British Tank due to the world leading Chobham armour. RPG's just bounced off em. Cheers Andy
Trouble is you'd probably have to look at missiles in several categories - in the Man-portable category one of those new Russki things would have to be up there wouldn't they? Sagger, Spigot etc. Sure I've read of Armour penetration capability of c.1.5m these days. Good article on the subject from the usually sensible FAS: Antitank Is there a clear winner in the never ending race? Is one invulnerable or is one unbeatable? This is probably the crux of it - 'best' usually becomes meaningless in these kind of assessments and everything has it's place/advantages/disadvantages. Horses for courses, & nothing's invulnerable or unbeatable... yet.
Drew - I am aware of the blue on blue in Irag as it was two members of my regiment - 16th /5th Lancers who were killed when a young officer and inexperienced gunner of the 2nd RTR blew their turret off with aclose shot from a 120mm - they might be still cleaning toilets ! Other ex members of the regiment constructed a memorial to them in the West Midlands but two slags stole the floral tributes - fortunately the Police caught up with them before the ex members could find them and so the tax payers were stuck with the bill for their time in the slammer. Pity that ! My RAMC friend has had tours in Irag and Afghanistan and has seen the effect of missiles on the latest - even chobham armoured Tanks Cheers
I don't think they are using Challi's in Afthganistan (No role for them and not tank country). I thinks its Warriors, the new 432's (Bulldog), Panther and other various soft skinned vehicles. They are victims of IED's rather than missiles. Cheers Andy Found this on Wiki, a rather good record for a tank I think. In one encounter within the urban area a Challenger 2 came under attack from irregular forces with machine guns and rocket propelled grenades. The drivers sight was damaged and while attempting to back away under the commander's directions, the other sights were damaged and the tank threw its tracks entering a ditch. It was hit directly by eight rocket propelled grenades from close range and a MILAN anti-tank missile, and was under heavy small arms fire for hours. The crew survived remaining safe within the tank until the tank was recovered for repairs, the worst damage being to the sighting system. It was back in operation six hours later after the repairs. One Challenger 2 operating near Basra survived being hit by 70 RPGs in another incident. There have been only two Challenger 2s damaged in combat and one destroyed: A friendly fire ("blue-on-blue") incident on 25 March 2003 in Basra in which one Challenger 2 of the Black Watch Battlegroup (2nd Royal Tank Regiment) mistakenly engaged another Challenger 2 of the Queen's Royal Lancers after detecting what was believed to be an enemy flanking manoeuvre on thermal equipment. The attacking tank's second round entered the open commander's hatch of the QRL Tank and detonated internally, destroying the tank and killing two crew members. It remains the only Challenger 2 to be completely destroyed on operations. August 2006 - the driver of a Challenger 2, Trooper Sean Chance, lost three of his toes when an RPG-29 bounced off the road, and penetrated the lower frontal hull armour (traditionally the weakest place on a tank) during an engagement in al-Amarah, Iraq. April 6, 2007 - in Basra, Iraq, an IED shaped charge penetrated the underside of the tank resulting in the driver losing a leg and causing minor injuries to another soldier. Cheers Andy
What confuses me is the claims of the various RPGs of recent design. Most or many claim to be able to penetrate 30 to 40 inches of armour, and as far as I know most new MBTs have about 9 to 10 inches of various sorts of armour from Chobham to Depleted Uranium etc, mainly in the front and turrets etc. I know much of it is sloped and spaced and so on, but I cannot reconcile the two. I saw a display at an Australian Tank Museum and it had about 6+ plates of 3" steel side by side, about 6 inches apart. A solid shot of about 3" had penetrated the first two plates and lodged in the third. I have no further information, but would guess it was from a 'Centurion' main gun. Can a RPG29 (or whatever) penetrate Chobham or DU armour? John.
Hardly vapourised the crew though Tom. He lost a bit of his foot. Ref the boucing off I was referring to the 7''s used when I was in Iraq. Here's a RPG strike on ERA/Chobham Armour from when I was in Iraq Cheers Andy
