Tank aerial pennants. N.Africa.

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Trux, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Photographs of British armour in N Africa often show pennants being flown from wireless aerials. I am putting the finishing touches to a number of 1:76 models of British tanks in the desert and have been trying to find out the colours and purpose of this bunting.

    John Sandars wrote in his Osprey book '7 Armoured Division 1940-45' that they corresponded to the regimental and squadron markings. The examples given are a troop pennant in purple, a swallow tailed squadron pennant in yellow with white triangle on it, and a red square flag with white 67 which corresponds with the regimental AOS sign. No further information is given, nor is there a date. Can anyone enlarge on this? Was this only for 7 Armoured? Was it used only at a certain time?

    David Fletcher says the pennants were to identify friendly forces and the colours were changed daily. Again no details are given.

    Finally:
    I find everything about N.Africa very confusing. Is there a simple book outlining the campaign, formations and equipment.

    Mike
     
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  2. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    Mike

    Have you posted a similar message on missing-Lynx.com ? They have a number of modelling specialists over there including Dick Taylor who may be able to help. Hopefully KevinT will also pop along later.

    Steve
     
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    [TMP] "Western Desert: British Aerial Pennants-?" Topic
    A quick summary. Color was dictated by seniority in the brigade. Senior regiment – red, Middle – yellow, Junior – Blue
    Most tanks would have been 'troop' tanks with two small triangle pennants, troop command tanks would have three triangles, squadron HQ would have a swallowtail pennant under the two triangles. Finally, the regiment commander would have a large rectangle pennant under the two triangles.


    [TMP] "Pennants for tanks" Topic
    The only guide I have seen, showed the tanks flying a triangular pennant in the squadron colours, red for A sqn etc.,the troop leader flew a triangular pennant with 2 diagonal stripes, and sqn commander flew a Swallow tail pennant in sqn colour. Sometimes a second pennant was flown in same sequence of colours to show troops within sqn. there were also a series of square/rectangular flags flown by command tanks to give orders: eg Follow me,echelon right etc. I will have to dig out the book for details. The idea was that you could identify who was who in a unit when radios were scarce and not reliable and vehicles were mostly hidden in a cloud of dust. i don't believe pennants would be flown to identify different regiments


    [TMP] "Brit tanks, WWII, pennon and Sqd. markings - HELP PLEASE" Topic
    Pennants:
    Regimental commander -- square in regimental colours
    'A' Squadron commander -- swallow in red
    'B' Squadron commander -- swallow in yellow
    'C' Squadron commander -- swallow in blue
    1 Troop commander -- triangle in black and red
    2 Troop commander -- triangle in black and yellow
    3 Troop commander -- triangle in black and blue
    1 Troop tank -- triangle in red
    2 Troop tank -- triangle in yellow
    3 Troop tank -- triangle in blue


    Remember I know very very little about this subject - just trying to help out

    TD
     
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  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    I don't know of a simple book covering the whole desert war. Maybe because it's a bit complicated ;)
     
  5. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Thanks both.

    I have only ever joined two forum type thingys. One is this one, and I did not actually join, the adaministrator joined me. The other was a Napoleonic one which was disappointing. But why bother when TD can do it all for me.

    I will see if I can match some of TDs snippets to other evidence. Of course photos are all in black and white.

    N.Africa is certainly complicated which is why I have never got to grips with it. To much toing and froing and too many changes of order of battle. Brigades change divisions, regiments change brigades and even squadrons change regiments. Generals come and go.
    It all hurts the elderly brain.

    Mike
     
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  6. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Indeed!

    I wonder if a pair of books would suit you better? Something outlining the campaign at a high level and something else zooming in on equipment and so forth. I do not know of a good single book on the campaign - the only thing that comes to mind is the North African portion of Eighth Army by Robin Neillands - the book covers Africa and Italy.

    I meant to mention, I can check Dick Taylor's discussion of pennants in Warpaint when I get the chance. (And when I am not so very tired... I was awake for an hour in the middle of the night.) Though Tricky Dicky seems to have provided some very informative links!
     
  7. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    But that doesnt affect the shapes :wacko:

    TD
     
  8. Trackfrower

    Trackfrower Member

    Most Tank commanders discovered that flags attract enemy fire!
    One of whom was Shan Hackett.
     
  9. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    No wonder I am confused. With information supplied and leads followed up I think I have identified five different flag systems. I shall try to make sense of them.

    Trackfrower is right of course. Carefully camouflaging tanks, placing them hull down and then flying brightly coloured bunting seems unwise.

    Mike
     
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  10. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    I conclude that the different descriptions of the pennant system are all describing the same basic system. This will have modifications but I give below what I understand to be the 'official' version.

    Commanders flags.

    Since 1930 there had been a system of flags to identify commander’s vehicles. This was still in use with 7 Armoured Division and its predecessors in 1939 and for some time afterwards.

    The 1930 system as used in 1939 was:

    Brigade Commander. A plain triangular pennant 12” by 36”, in the brigade colour or other colour at the discretion of the commander. Red was the usual colour for the senior brigade. Green for a second brigade.

    Armoured Regiment Commander. 18” by 36” rectangular flag in the regimental colour and with the AOS number in white.
    Senior regiment red.
    2nd regiment yellow.
    Junior regiment blue.

    Tank Battalion Commander. 18” by 36” rectangular flag in the RTR colours of brown over green over red with the AOS number in white or black.

    Armoured Regiment/Tank Battalion Headquarters tanks. As Commander but with HQ in white.

    Armoured Squadron Commander. 9” by 18” swallow tail pennant in the squadron colour with squadron letter in white.
    A squadron red.
    B squadron yellow.
    C squadron blue.

    Tank Company Commander. 9” by 18” swallow tail pennant in the company colour with company number in white.
    1 company red.
    2 company yellow.
    3 company blue.

    Troop Commander. 9” by 12” triangular pennant in black with two coloured stripes in the troop colour.
    1 troop red stripes.
    2 troop yellow stripes.
    3 troop blue stripes.
    4 troop green stripes.
    5 troop white stripes.

    Individual tanks. 9” X 12” triangular pennant in troop colour.
    1 troop red.
    2 troop yellow.
    3 troop blue.
    LAD. Blue pennant with red disc.

    There were, as always, variations on these.

    The recognition pennants remain a mystery. It seems that various numbers of pennants in various colours could be flown at various heights on the aerial. These could be ordered and changed as required.

    In 1941 a blue flag could be flown to indicate a friendly vehicle.

    There was a comprehensive range of signal flags which could be used to give orders to subordinate units. Most of these were hand held but three were commonly fastened to the aerials.
    Rally. Red over white over blue square.
    Come On. Green/white diagonal.
    Out of action. Red/yellow diagonal.

    Flags were discontinued in 1942.

    Feel free to add, contradict, qualify or discuss any of the above.

    Mike

    Good job the Wireless No11 aerial was a sturdy steel tube.
     
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  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Well done Mike - thought I would leave the easier part as above to yourself :-P

    TD
     

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