Tank action , Piotrkow,Poland, 5th Sept 1939

These are maps of battle (maps are in Polish). All text I have are also in Polish so it will took some time to translate it

*września mean september
*batalion czołgów lekkich mean light tank battalion

 

According to this site, Panzer-Regiment 1 of 1st Panzer Division was equipped with 39 Panzer 1, 60 Panzer 2, 20 Panzer 3, 28 Panzer 4 and 6 Panzer-Befehlswagen during the Polish campaign:

Lexikon der Wehrmacht - Panzerdivisionen

Panzer-Regiment 2 of the same division was equipped with the same vehicles in slightly different numbers:

Lexikon der Wehrmacht - Panzerdivisionen

Quite a variety of panzers there. Have you got any photos Owen?

H

 

This site has a photo of a Pz IV thought to have been knocked out at Piotrków on the 5th of September but there is an element of doubt over where and when the photo was taken:

Axis History Forum • View topic - Tank battles in Poland 1939

 

I don´t think 7TP´s had the firepower to knock out a PzKw IV, but they sure were better in almost every aspect than I´s and II´s, including the peculiarly cute looks of the twin-turreted ones.

By the way, didn´t IV´s join the Wermacht a bit later than 1939?

 

I don´t think 7TP´s had the firepower to knock out a PzKw IV, but they sure were better in almost every aspect than I´s and II´s, including the peculiarly cute looks of the twin-turreted ones.

By the way, didn´t IV´s join the Wermacht a bit later than 1939?

AFAIK there were 211 Pz IV in Poland 1939 but the best armour of the early models was 20mm with some 8mm plates, barely enough to resist standard rifle ammo. The first A models entered service in 1936 followed by the B in 1937 and C and D in 1938. AFAIK the Ausf E did not appear in time for Poland.

 

AFAIK there were 211 Pz IV in Poland 1939 but the best armour of the early models was 20mm with some 8mm plates, barely enough to resist standard rifle ammo. The first A models entered service in 1936 followed by the B in 1937 and C and D in 1938. AFAIK the Ausf E did not appear in time for Poland.

With that kind of armor, what was then the improvement between a III (even a II) and a IV early model? Gun only?

 

The Pz III was meant to be the main combat tank and had 30mm armour from the start, the early Pz IIID at over 19t was actually a heavier machine than the contemporary Pz IVC "support tank" at 18t and Pz III production was stopped only because it's smaller turret ring was unable to accept a high velocity 75mm gun that the Germans believed was going to be the minimum requirement from 1943 onwards.
A comparison between the Pz IV and Pz II is all to the advantage of the Pz IV (5 men crew, better visibility etc.) except for armour and the early IV being nearly twice as heavy as the Pz II, But the II was designed as an interim simplified model to fill the gap while the III and IV production got in it's stride, the Germans didn't expect to go to war with it as MBT.

 

The Pz III was meant to be the main combat tank and had 30mm armour from the start, the early Pz IIID at over 19t was actually a heavier machine than the contemporary Pz IVC "support tank" at 18t and Pz III production was stopped only because it's smaller turret ring was unable to accept a high velocity 75mm gun that the Germans believed was going to be the minimum requirement from 1943 onwards.
A comparison between the Pz IV and Pz II is all to the advantage of the Pz IV (5 men crew, better visibility etc.) except for armour and the early IV being nearly twice as heavy as the Pz II, But the II was designed as an interim simplified model to fill the gap while the III and IV production got in it's stride, the Germans didn't expect to go to war with it as MBT.

Support tank?

Also, just found an interesting table in Wiki, comparing early WW2 armor:

Comparison of early World War II tanks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfortunately, it doesn´t include PzKw IVs.

 

Owen,
No Tank casualties, but some pages on the topic from a German book I have called, Kampf and Untergang der deutschen Panzertruppe 1939-1945, by Dörfler.

Regards
Tom

 

Owen,
I have just found this which will interest you.

German casualties (8082 to 10572 killed, 27,278 to 30322 wounded and 3404 to 5029 missing) were very low compare to Polish casualties (66300 killed, 133700 wounded and 420000 taken prisoner). Poles lost 327 out of their 435 airplanes in combat, while 98 flew to Romania. In addition, 26000 civilians were killed during the fighting. Germans lost some 993 to 1000 armored fighting vehicles (mainly destroyed by anti-tank guns), 370 to 400 artillery pieces, 697 to 1300 airplanes (damaged and destroyed) along with 11000 motor vehicles. According to the German sources only 89 PzKpfw I, 83 PzKpfw II, 26 PzKpfw III, 19 PzKpfw IV, 5 command tanks, 7 PzKpfw 35(t) and 7 PzKpfw 38(t) were completely lost. In addition, Polish Navy sunk 2 destroyers, 2 minelayers (some sources state that only one vessel was sunk) and damaged numerous other vessels including "Schleswig-Holstein", while losing single destroyer "Wicher", minelayer "Gryf", artillery training ship "Mazur" and two small vessels. Soviet losses amounted to 737 killed and 1859 wounded. Some sources state that Soviet losses accounted for 10000 dead, wounded and missing. Soviets also lost 42 tanks and 429 that broke down along with some 30 airplanes. Soviets took prisoner some 242000 Polish soldiers.
Some 70000 to 120000 Polish soldiers escaped to Hungary and Romania, 20000 to Latvia and Lithuania, majority eventually making their way west to continue fighting under General Wladyslaw Sikorski. On September 30th, Polish Government in Exile was established in Paris.
In general, Polish Campaign proved to be very challenging campaign for the Germans. Polish campaign demonstrated the speed and power possessed by Panzers and Panzer Divisions. It also demonstrated that the time of large armies made up of foot-infantry and cavalry was over. At the same time, it provided Germans with real experience of using armor in combat conditions. Germans also learned that tanks were not suited for combat in build up areas (e.g. heavy losses suffered in Warsaw) as well as that well organized anti-tank defenses are very dangerous. Polish Campaign also proved that PzKpfw I and II were unsuitable to be used as frontline combat tanks and should be completely replaced with heavier PzKpfw III and IV. During the course of the campaign, Light Divisions proved to be unsuccessful being to weak to perform task of either regular infantry or motorized infantry.


Achtung Panzer ! - Invasion of Poland (Fall Weiss)

Regards
Tom

 

Support tank?


The idea was that gun tanks armed with a small caliber high velocity AT gun (37mm to 45mm) need "support" from a vehicle with a better HE capability against soft targets.

The British with the 3" howitzer armed CS variants and the soviets with the BT-7A are other examples. The late war 105mm Shermans probably have a similar background though 75mm guns have a respectable HE round.

 

5th September

Activities on this day were similar course as the previous day, with this difference, that made by the Germans to break was the beginning of the end of the Polish campaign. Nothing was able to inhibit march of the German armored columns on the way to Warsaw. At dawn, 1. and 4. Panzer Divisions started their advance. 1. Panzer Division break through Polish lines, held by two battalions from 86. Infantry Regiment (86. IR), entered the Piotrkow circumvent it from north, and then attack 85. IR, which defended the forest northeast to the city. Before the evening, the Polish defense of 19. Infantry Division is definitely broken, and all battalions from 86. and 85. IR withdraw in disorder in the east, trying to shelter for Pilica. Even before the battle, the staff of 19. Infantry Division knew that her position is extremely unfavorable. Extended in flat terrain, completely devoid of forest cover, 86. IR (without I/ 86. IR) together with II Squadron from 19 Light Artillery Regiment (II/19. LAR) and 19. Company of anti – tank guns (the only such company in Polish Infantry Division in September) won the position in direct contact of 1. Panzer Division extending bridgehead on Prudce. Since the early morning, both the infantry and artillery positions were under heavy fire of German aviation and artillery. Complete enemy control in the air undermined morale of defenders. Local Polish artillery bursts squadron couldn't help, because he was too weak numerically, and even if he managed to fire his 100 mm howitzers to break any German strike, is soon coming out next, from another location. About at 14:00 began a general attack on Polish positions. Earlier reports cemented the belief of the Germans in the absence of Polish right wing guards, so there is addressed major blow forces. The attack came on the auxiliary Polish left wing, cutting Piotrków from Sulejów. Both maneuvers were noted in the staff 86 IR and were not effective counteracted by II/19. LAR. About 17:30 German tanks came to Polish artillery position and the rear of 86 IR. Battalion commander decided to withdraw to Piotrków their howitzers by the forest northeast of the city. Different batteries have complied with the order as well, despite the very intense German Ju-87 aircraft attack. Unfortunately, as a result of retreat of the individual batteries are not reorganised in time, and each battalion started forward without coordination with other units. Similar fate had 85. IR, which, together with I/19. LAR and 19 ATC defended access to forest north-east of Piotrków. About 17:00, bypassing Piotrków from the north, units from 1. Panzer Division approached the Piotrkow forest. Throughout by way of the march were very effective supported by the aviation assault. III/85 IR seeing the movement of German tanks, pressed by the leading elements from German side of Piotrków, withdrew to concentration area of his own regiment, revealing the way Piotrków - Wolbórz - Tomaszów. The situation has become beginning of the end of the 19 Polish Infantry Division, which is now found itself within the grouping XVI. Panzer Korps. Realizing the danger in which they were own troops, the commander of the division commanded pierce the regiments and battalions of south-east, and after passing to Pilica reorganize his unit. However, in the night march behind enemy most of the units lost its way and disorder retreated to the south east. Worse, the commander of the division, while driving his car, was taken prisoner by Germans tank which was standing on the road. That division has not completely destroyed, thanks to actions of 76. IR, which made nighttime attack on the rear of 1. Panzer Division, threatening directly to HQ of this unit. Despite these successes the local situation in the Northern Army Group Prusy slowly aim toward disaster, there was also the an opening between the front of the Polish army and Army LODZ.
To counteract this development events, General Thommee ordered 2 (301). Light Tank Battalion (2 (301). LTB ) and 11. Rifle Battalion (11.RB ) to counterattack left wing of the German 1. Panzer Division. For this were created two separate Groups:

• 11. RB, 2/2 (301). LTB, battery of Squadron artillery - received order to attack by Krzysztoporska Convenience and the forest Jeżów;

• 1. and 3/2 (301). LTB - was ordered to attack on Siomki, Kisiel, Madeleine.

Attack is scheduled for 10:30. Units made the necessary redeployment at night and at dawn and in the morning all units were ready for action. Fighting began earlier than plan assumed, at 9:15, before forest, where Polish unit, began regrouping, met German column (2 tanks, 8 armored cars, 2 half-tracks and 6 trucks with infantry). Without waiting for the signal to attack, Cpt. K. Hajdenko (commander of 2/2 (301). LTB ) commanded to start shelling German machines, then went with a company to attack. German surprise was complete. Unit destroyed all their equipment, infantry and hid in the field. Using situations, Polish tanks moved to the south, and at 11:00 and reached Yezhov. Along the way, destroyed 11 enemy tanks. Also they captured 70 Germans. Unfortunately, Polish could not control forest, from which Germany directed their anti-tank and rifle fire. At this point. 11 RB. suffered serious losses and retreated to positions.

The second group, composed of two tank companies, attack on Siomki and there met with determined opposition. Worse, the Siomek came under counterattack from German II/1. Panzer Regiment. There was therefore encounter battle, in which Germany lost 4 machines. Unfortunately, a further attack was impossible, because numerically superior Germans began to push the prevailing Polish tanks to the north. Polish armored unit, during the retreat, split in two independent teams. This was the last clash of tank (for such a large scale) in the war. 2 Company from 2 (301). LTB. without having information about the bulk of the battalion withdrew about 15:00 to the north, destroying in the way 2 armored cars. Commander of this company sent its branch at the battalion position, in the hope of connection forces with the main battalion. However, there he had not received any information and went to the Tuszyn. Along the way company encountered the battalion's rear elements, which has been subordinated. In the forest, the South Tuszyn, 2 (301). LTB was reorganised, but now had only 24 tanks, including 6 damaged. Irretrievably lost 13 tanks, therefore, the battalion was withdrawn to Warsaw.

Picture show destroyed Pz.Pkfw I near Piotrków