Stereotypes About The Red Army And Russia

you what???
every joke should have it's limits.

If you think I am joking you are sadly mistaken.

 

No spidge, Surely they built their rails from exclusively Soviet steel?? You don't mean some of the 22,000 tons that Owen mentioned In just ONE convoy could concievably have proved useful?? Surely Stalin himself stacked it in a pile marked 'Evil Western Steel' and didn't use it for tanks, trucks, infrastructure, small arms, artillery, ammunition, tools, spare parts, equipment, aircraft or any other necessities. In fact I bet it's still there. Rusting away.... Damn it's capitalist ferrousness.


(I'm still most impressed by 35,170 motorcycles supplied. I'd love to see and hear 35,170 1940's military bikes all starting up at the same time...)

I thought 66 fully assembled Locomotives was quite impressive.

 

I'm posting this again on this thread to ram the fact home.
Here is an example of PQ convoy. In January of 1944, an American lend-lease convoy left Seattle bound for Vladivostok. Its manifest read as follows:

46 merchantmen (all 8-10K ton ships)...

Very interesting, what did you use for source for these figures? Apparently this Pacific Coast to Vladivostok route was numerically the most important of all Lend Lease routes. And totally risk free as the ships were under the Soviet flag so the Japanese would not touch them! I find it most tragic that so many lives were lost in the Murmansk route, mainly for appearances sake!

Just in case anyone wonders, I am not another persona for a certain recently banned person

 

I find it most tragic that so many lives were lost in the Murmansk route, mainly for appearances sake!


Are you of the opinion that the effort was in vain or the numbers delivered of little importance?

 

No, what I think is that considering that the Persian and Vladivostok routes being available as alternatives, and that these were minimum or no risk, I find the reasons for maintaining the North Atlantic route and consequent loss of life questionable.

routes: http://www.o5m6.de/routes.html

quantities: http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/documents/index.htm

 

If it was the case that the Pacific route was safer, it does seem logical to question the reason for maintaining the very dangerous and costly North Atlantic route.

They could include distance, transport difficulties from Vladivostok to the 'Western Front', limited shipping in the pacific, ability to combine shipping for the USA, UK and USSR routes and probably others.

I'm not too familiar with the restrictions or lack of them with Pacific shipping and trade routes, but if anyone does know I would be interested to find out.

 

Well, at least the North Atlantic route would be the most direct for British and Eastern seaboard US and Canadian supplies, due to the urgency in getting supplies to the Soviets it seemed worth the risk. Also the amount of escort means put at disposal meant that the Allied Navies were more than willing to guarantee that the most supplies would be delivered with the least loss, so I'm not condemning anyone.

 

By the way, this reminds me of a novel I read in the past, The Ship by C.S.Forester, of Horatio Hornblower fame, written in 1943.

The book tells of a Murmansk run on a fictional AA cruiser, and it is so pungent that I never had the gut to read it again. No better depiction of the sacrifice!

 

I'll have to look that one up, do you know the ISBN?

 

That's the one, a definite must-read! The webpage says on the Mediterranean, but I swear it was very much the North Cape!

 

At first it would sound logical from a logistical point of view to ship the transport, munitions etc across from the West Coast to say Vladivostok - but then they would have to get across the Russian continent, East to West. Considering the vast distance they would have to travel and the climate involved, does one think that Murmansk must have been looked at as the lesser of two evils or it was closer to the actual main front. The convoy from the east would have to travel at least 3 or 4 thousand miles over inhospitable climate with no refuelling or fuel dumps.

The loss of ships,manpower and equipment is saddening but desperate times deperate measures. PQ17 and other savagely hit convoys spring to mind.

 

Apologies I didn't make the first line make sense. When I said it sounded logical to go from the West Coast to Vladivostok - I was thinking from a risk viewpoint. The logistical element would have been measurably less risk than the sea lanes to Murmansk. Once on dry land there is the bugbear of crossing the Russia mainland.

There is going to be a great loss of equipment by supply Russia via Murmansk but since the Baltic is out of the question and the Germans know that Murmansk is the only available port nearest to the Eastern Front that could deal with the amounts involved. Shipping already has to navigate the North Cape and the perils of icing on the superstructures, but then said shipping comes into the narrowing area of the port and high losses become inevitable.

 

By the way, this reminds me of a novel I read in the past, The Ship by C.S.Forester, of Horatio Hornblower fame, written in 1943.

The book tells of a Murmansk run on a fictional AA cruiser, and it is so pungent that I never had the gut to read it again. No better depiction of the sacrifice!
The Hornblower series, that an awesome series. Forester was a genius author. I haven't read the books but I have collected the A&E series on DVD. I believe it was even more popular in the US than it was in Britain. It actually had you pulling for the British! (just kidding!)

I am not sure but I think the Brits made that series did they not? It couldn't have be made in Hollywood because they would have required the script be modified to make Horatio a flamboyant gay character and the British and the French would have been the "best of friends" and would have spent a lot of time skinny-dipping together rather than fighting.

 

Once on dry land there is the bugbear of crossing the Russia mainland.

Well, that's what the Transsiberian railline was there for, since the Czar times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsiberian

 

By the way, this reminds me of a novel I read in the past, The Ship by C.S.Forester, of Horatio Hornblower fame, written in 1943.

The book tells of a Murmansk run on a fictional AA cruiser, and it is so pungent that I never had the gut to read it again. No better depiction of the sacrifice!

Wasn't this about an action in the Med against the Italians? I read it 30 years ago at least as I have a greater interest in North Africa and the Med.

Possibly I am thinking of another similar title!

 

Well, at least the North Atlantic route would be the most direct for British and Eastern seaboard US and Canadian supplies, due to the urgency in getting supplies to the Soviets it seemed worth the risk. Also the amount of escort means put at disposal meant that the Allied Navies were more than willing to guarantee that the most supplies would be delivered with the least loss, so I'm not condemning anyone.

This did tie up an enormous number of U-Boats and it would have been reasonable to consider that the British would not allow Germany to "own" any waters.

Commitment to Stalin by Churchill & Roosevelt would have undoubtedly been the basis of driving the treacherous route which eventually saw the highest loss of life per capita (1 in 24?) for the MM, which I believe was the highest of any branch of the "armed" forces.

Britain's production for The Soviets was based on speed and as you say, it was the shortest route whereas Vladivostok allowed the safe delivery of Lend-Lease but by far the longest delivery once it was landed.

Murmansk to Leningrad 1000kms - Vladivostok to Leningrad 9000kms.

 

Nice sites spidge,...

But i can't found any sherman thereI thought Shermans were part of the package as well.,...

am not too sure where is this sherman roaming,.. but i was thought this was part of russian crewed sherman.

Thats an interesting pic. Looks like thats eithera firefly which is a bit strange cos i didnt think these where lend leased being in such short supply or its a Soviet conversion. The muzzle brake doesnt look right for firefly...

 

What pic are you talking about, kfz?