Sten gun allocation to SP (or tank) crews?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Chris C, Nov 6, 2019.

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  1. SDP

    SDP Incurable Cometoholic

    I have a scan of the Troop Roll Book for 24th Lancers A Squadron 3rd Troop - equipped at the time with Shermans - where against one chaps details it states pistol exchanged for Sten. No way of finding out why it happened etc. It also gives details of the guns concerned!

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  2. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    That memo from 42 Armd Div reminded me of the developments over in the opposition camp. From the start of the war each crewman of a Panzer was authorised a pistol, and there was also one machine pistol carried as a vehicular weapon. When the Panzer Div organisation was reviewed in early 1944 the driver was officially stripped of his pistol and now counted the on board MP40 as his weapon. I think that's pretty much where British crews were at by 1943.

    Gary
     
  3. Don Juan

    Don Juan Well-Known Member

    Yes, and when that 42 AD memo was drawn up in Jan '43, there would not have been any open topped Anti-Tank SPG's in the Army at that time - I don't know when the first M10's arrived, but I think they went straight to the Italian theatre in any case.

    But something must have prompted the General Staff to include two SMG's in the Archer's specification, as this was double the number hitherto allocated to AFV's.
     
  4. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Well, it might have just reflected the lack of other weapons to defend against infantry. It didn't have any machine guns of its own, just one Bren and the two Steps.
     
  5. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    I joined the 4th Queen's Own Hussars in March 1944 and found (to my discomfort) that my tank was a Stuart Mark III turret-less "Honey"

    There was a crew of 3 and we were all armed with revolvers.

    Apart from these the tank was supplied with a Tommy Gun which was often used by the Tank Commander, a .30 Browning mounted fore and a .50
    mounted aft. The was also a 2inch mortar mounted on the right hand side of the turret ring facing front.

    Ron
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place....

    An instruction manual may well include details of storage of items that were issued as G1098 items (to individuals from unit stores) or ammunition. The Complete Equipment Schedule (CES) lists the equipment issued to the vehicle commander as e.g. Gun self propelled 17 pounder M10 or Tank Medium Sherman, or Post War as FV 433 Abbot. Sherman tanks may have been issued complete qwith sten guns to the RAC. I am not sure about the M10s for the RA. The artillery had a secondary infantry role, as can be seen by threads on 600 RA. Small arms may have been held as a G1098 item to the unit.
    My experience was post war and can confirm that CES for AFVs such as the Fv 432 APC and FV 433 Abbot SP included a Light Machine Gun (Bren re-chambered for 7.62mm), but not small arms. As an FV 432 commander I have recollection that the Bren was technically on the the driver's signature, and if we all dismounted he carried it.
     
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  7. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    Hi all,

    Yesterday I photographed the three Canadian WE's for batteries with Archers and noticed some hand-written notes regarding "machine carbines". I expect Gary already has these and I haven't actually had a chance to chew these over to see what they indicate but I thought I would post them in case they are of interest. Separate posts to follow.

    Do these men perhaps include HQ personnel only? Hum.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2019
  8. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    This is from II/186D/1 (one troop SP, one troop 6 pr towed, one troop 17 pr towed)

    Any idea what "EPL" (? EDL?) is in the note on the side?

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  9. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    And this is from II-186E-1 (one troop SPs, two troop 17 pr towed)

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  10. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    And from II/18F/1 (three troops 17 pr SPs)

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  11. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Thanks for posting those Chris. I've got the WEs but didn't get the notes of small arms that you've posted.

    I've only had time for a quick look through myself, but they have gone for a straightforward count of each WO and every OR in a driver or motorcycle related job, plus every man responsible for an LMG, and put them down to have a Sten. That would give a Sten gun for the dvr-mech and perhaps one gun no if there's an LMG on the SP I think. I'm not sure whether the same logic applies to the earlier Bty WEs. I've had a quick try with one and it's close but not a match for the Sten guns quoted in the weapons table.

    Gary
     
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  12. Chris C

    Chris C Canadian

    You're welcome, Gary!

    Looking at the first sheet - the total of Stens is one off (64) from the finalised values given in the WE (63). Perhaps because there is a "surplus MC" (motorcycle) listed.

    Drilling down to a section for an Archer, there were 8 men - 1 sergeant, 1 driver IC (?), 1 driver mech (tank), and 5 gun numbers. As near as I can make out from the notes, they would have been assigned one Sten for the driver IC, one Sten for the driver mech, and one Sten to go with the Bren LMG. They also had a 15-cwt GS truck - the driver of the truck being assigned one Sten, the driver of the SP being assigned another, and the third being allocated to whoever was assisting the LMG gunner.
     
  13. Gary Kennedy

    Gary Kennedy Member

    Yes, that's the way it should work out from the notes I think.

    I've had a look back at some of the other RCA WEs I've got and I just cannot get them to add up in the same manner. HQ of an Atk Regt is shown with 26 Sten guns. Personnel includes 2 WOs, 2 batman-dvrs, 11 drivers IC, 4 LMG Nos, 4 M/C orderlies, 1 dvr-mech and 6 dvr-ops, which I make 30 entitled to a Sten. If you look at the organization table then there's at least one 'non-driver' type responsible for at vehicle, which makes 31.

    I couldn't find many RCA war equipment tables to see how they compare. There's only one I can find for an RCA Atk Bty, and it turned out to be for a Training unit in Canada.

    I did a lot of comparing and cogitating on RA figures for such things in 21AG, and was never totally satisfied as there were so few data points to work with. The RCA ones I really can't quite figure, even if they appear to have used the same definitions as the RA.

    Gary
     

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