Ok here is a update from my side. I found out that it's definitly Stalag IV-D (Zw) Annaburg former Oflag 54E. This camp existed till 1945. I found also 22 Americans who had been in here however not all of them are infantry. So I tried to contact the museum of this camp but the email adress is corrupt. Anyone else ideas?? Maybe registration file ?
MelMel Can you provide a location as to where the tag was found - thanks It is understood that the camp was probably liberated in April 1945 by Patton and the US Army. Therefore there are 2 possible scenarios: 1. The POW's were marched out of the camp by the Germans prior to the US and Russian Armies liberating that part of Germany, and the finishing point of the march was in the area where you found the tag, where they were then repatriated/liberated by which ever Allied forces reached that point. They then may have been moved to a holding camp (close by) prior to repatriation back to the UK or wherever. 2. The POW's were liberated at the camp by Russian or US Armies and then moved (probably by US transport) to a holding camp which was situated where you found the tag. There they would probably have had a medical, an interview and shower/bath/change of clothes etc etc at which point the tag could have been dropped/lost/discarded by the ex POW. TD
The tag was found between Geilenkirchen and Rimburg. So that was Western Germany it seems impossible that this part was an holding area because Torgau/ Annaburg is about on the eastern border of Germany (360miles into germany). So when the camp was liberated so was the rest of Germany. Could it be that the American has been put back into combat after exchange of a prisoner ? Because this branch of Stalag was known for repatriation and returning back into military control. Ps. Sorry for being a pain in the ass !
I would assume that he would not have been put back into the 'front line'. In either scenario potentially ex POW's would not be fit enough to resume combat. There would be sufficient Allied and Russian troops available to finish the job, as it turned out the war would last another 4 - 6 weeks, without resorting to making ex POW's fit enough to resume their combat roles. TD
No indeed totally true, in the end of the war it's impossible. Still at this moment I don't get the time gap. They past Geilenkirchen in somewhere autumn of 1944 by then Stalag IV-D was still in use. So I was thinking maybe they exchanged PoW's ( see Wikipedia: www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_IV-D )
Oh dear, I have just spent a couple of hours composing a post to get more information out of you Mel, and was about to post it when I saw that the thread had been updated. It’s really irrelevant when these areas are liberated as you only have a tag with a number on it, which you roughly know where and when it was made and where and when you found it. You cannot be sure. when it was lost and by whom. nor have you told us if it is a complete tag or half of one? We can rule out that it belonged to F W McLaren as his is accounted for. P. A. T. Holme is still a possibility. Back to looking.
Haha sorry about that RCG! The tag is complete. Well if the area is littered with US stuff in foxholes like toothbrushes, shoes, razors, etc. it's simple to say when the tag was left in wich timespan. At this moment i don't see why a UK soldier had to be at this point. Since the British army was at a totally different spot in 1944.
Melmel . You are only looking at one point in time, not the wider picture. Let’s look at what you have. An ID tag issued to a Pow at Stalag 1V-D (ZW) possibly between Feb 41 to July 41 at Torgau or Stalag 1V-D (ZW)Annaburg May 42 to March 44. Tag no T 2063 issued to a Pow Nationality unknown, but unlikely to be an American, as you say that the T indicates Torgau. American aircrews were not pows until after mid-42. So this indicates that the timespan that the tag could have been in the place you found it, is approx 70 years. How and when did it get there? Pre 1944. Pow on work party or escaped pow. Escaped pow, disposed of by Gestapo A German soldier who picked it up elsewhere then lost it. The pow escaped made, it back to UK, and gave/exchanged/sold it to a GI who keep it with him then lost it on the battlefield. 1944/5. As TD has already stated. Therefore there are 2 possible scenarios: 1. The POW's were marched out of the camp by the Germans prior to the US and Russian Armies liberating that part of Germany, and the finishing point of the march was in the area where you found the tag, where they were then repatriated/liberated by which ever Allied forces reached that point. They then may have been moved to a holding camp (close by) prior to repatriation back to the UK or wherever. 2. The POW's were liberated at the camp by Russian or US Armies and then moved (probably by US transport) to a holding camp which was situated where you found the tag. There they would probably have had a medical, an interview and shower/bath/change of clothes etc etc at which point the tag could have been dropped/lost/discarded by the ex POW. Then we have the period up to when you found it. Other relic hunters, children and other visitors to the site. Now let’s say that the pow (Whatever his nationality) that had been issued the tag, made it home ok, still with the tag in his possession. Then in the 1960s decided to visit his old camp and have a look around Germany. Meets up with an Ex American soldier doing the same thing, gets talking like old soldiers do, the American invites ex pow to see where he fought in 1944. Walking around the site ex pow pulls handkerchief from pocket to wipe nose or eyes, tag which was in pocket after he had been showing it around the night before falls, unnoticed to the ground. Waiting to be picked up by you 30 odd years later. I have a theory as to how this tag got there, and who it was issued to, but at the moment I cannot confirm that it is the right man. Still working on it.
We share about the same theory... Totally true.. Except the extract part it's way too far 360miles takes ages. And I miss the part of exchanging prisoners. If he was exchanged and fit for combat he still could have been on the frontline. And the T on the tag thats correct but maybe he had been transfered to Annaburg so the Zw is engraved later on. I will wait on what you are working on.
The reason POW's might be exchanged were that they: Were old, disabled, badly wounded, had terminal illness's - that kind of thing, so how can you foresee them being able to return to frontline combat. The thought of exchanging near combat ready troops would be totally foolish on either side. Exchanges were also only made via neutral countries, namely Sweden or Turkey (although some through Spain) so I cannot see how the location you found this tag being anywhere near an 'exchange' route. I go back to the area being used as a holding camp for ex POW's which obviously had, earlier in the war, been a battlefield. I would suspect you could go to any field from Brest to Berlin and find relics from WW2, I dont think your particular location is any different. I think you have a nigh on impossible task, and I wish you the best of luck going forward. TD
I think this is being thought too deeply. Rich suggested two POW's, one of whuch has been discounted. Was the other at the POW camp suggested? If so, you are pretty sure to have your man. How the tag got to where it was found would be pure conjecture but the books on the final marches might indicate if this POW camp was evacuated and marched to where the tag was found. Other than that, was F W McLaren in the camp concerned? His Liberation questionnaire, if he completed one, will tell you. Regards, Nick
Mc Laren was captured in Greece and been into other Stalag, Holme might still be a oppertunity if he marched to this spot. He has been in some Oflag's and Annaburg was shortly an Oflag. I' also thinking about the big picture now .
Holme his ID tag.. nor descent information about him is nowhere to find. It might be his tag. Awaiting and searching more, thanks for al the help gents. What was his fully written name?
Paul Arthur T Holme born 22nd Feb 1916, Hendon, Middlesex. was living in Newbury, Berkshire at least until 1970. Died somewhere in Hampshire district March 1975.
Just thought I would highlight this story as it illustrates how Pows and US Forces mingled. http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/25/a4521025.shtml
Just found out he has been captured in 1943 and released in 7/8 may 45. After that he became a headmaster in 1950 of a school. He died in january 1975. He has a brother and sister let's see if I can get some more information still unknown if he was in Stalag IV-D
And another update...about his brother who was also serving in ww2 and was awarded with a military cross. Major-General Michael Holme, CBE, MC, former GOC Near East Land Forces, died 5 December, 2004. He was aged 86. Michael Walter Holme was born 9 May, 1918, the son of Thomas Walter Holme and Ruth Sangster Rivington, and was educated at Winchester College. Reading this I think it's the correct person about Paul Arthur because he was in the same regiment. # My late father, Michael Ryan, was in Stalag 4B. He was a Corporal in the 2nd Btn, Hampshire Regiment. He was captured at the battle of the Tabourba Gap in December 1942 and spent the rest of the winter in a tented camp in Sicily before being sent to a proper camp somewhere in mainland Italy. After the fall of Mussolini he thought that the camp would be liberated as all the Italian guards disappeared, but the Germans arrived and took them all to Germany and he spent the rest of the war in Stalag 4B near Muhlberg. He was there when the Russians arrived and remembered that the first Russian soldiers he saw were Mongolians riding little ponies. > Trying to get in contact with his grand childeren if they know more.
Anyone a register from Italian PoW Camps? Just found out he had been in a Italian camp however unknown wich one.
I don't know if this helps, but my father was a POW for 3 and a half years after being captured at Tobruk on 21st June 1942. He was at Stalag IV DZ in Annaburg from Sept 1943 to April 1945, having been transferred there from PG53 near Macerata, Italy when the Italians packed it in (he was also in PG60 near Lucca). Stalag IV DZ was a porcelain factory that was requisitioned in May 1942 (I actually visited it this year). At Annaburg, he was used as forced labour at the Falkenberg railways, where he worked on the maintenance of trains etc. The German soldiers were scared of the approaching Russians, and on 15th April 1945, the whole of camp Stalag IVDZ were marched out. They crossed the Adolf Hitler bridge over the Mulde River, and the Germans surrendered to nearby American troops.
