Stalag 4b Rugby - South Africa

Discussion in 'Prisoners of War' started by JJ van Rooyen, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the looking up, TD.

    We've looked again at my end ( two pairs of glasses ) and come up with more variations.

    "Ball" or "Hall" has an "all" as a surname ending but very hard to decipher the beginning of the surname and separate from the initials.

    " Nathan J---ez" could be Nat Ramllez: the Nat crashes into the surname. The R could be a K.

    G.J. Caulsee is fairly clear as that name.

    B. Youngleer also fairly clear.

    J. M. Ockley could be J.M. Ochley

    A.L. Horte could be A.W. Forte

    E.A. Chapman could be E.D. or C.D. There's a smudge.

    A.J. Fabricius. It is a stylish F: a long line with a crossing stroke. If that was a mistake then it would be Labricius, but I doubt it.
     
  2. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Hi TD Try Youngleson. I checked in our phone book and there is a name Youngleson
    Diane
     
  3. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Youngleson does fit.

    "Breakfast" and "Olla" may well be a description of the time and the place and possibly written in the same hand as A.J.Fabricius.
     
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Youngleson works

    Also just found Fabricus

    So thats 2 more sorted

    TD
     
  5. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Re Ball/Hall etc - some options

    D H Blackall
    Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 53274 2184 4B


    A Marshall
    Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 6517 4B


    A S Povall
    Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 116952 223918 4B

    J V Rall
    Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany S.A.P.195924 222876 4B



    TD
     
  6. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    J V Rall looks like it could fit. There is a good beginning stroke for the J but the V gets lost. The R could have an oval in the middle: appropriate for rugby.

    The next signature below is Nat something, Kanllez ? Of the letters a K followed by A looks possible. Then something indistinct and a double L. A bloated W is possible. Ending ey, ez.

    G J Caulsee has a blot in the middle so the L could be a T with a low cross stroke: Cautsee ? Rather remote possibility.

    Good for you about Fabricus. Sorry I added an "i".

    John
     
  7. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    I think Oakley is in fact J McG Oehley 12162 22416 4b
     
  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    John

    Perhaps - G J Coetsee Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 198248 224944 4B

    DianeE - correct

    So now we are left with:

    Nathan ????llez?
    A L Horte ?? (see post below - Foster)
    E A Chapman (I think E S Chapman)
    Olla
    L G K L

    TD

    edited to add:
    Bit in red above
     
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Possible for A L Horte ?

    A L Foster
    Muhlberg (Elbe), Germany 236424 261329 4B

    TD
     
  10. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Oehley does work, hard to pronounce.

    I like Foster ( no smudges ). Bit stylish at the end.

    Coetsee sounds South African: smudge took away the cross stroke for the T.

    The initial S in Chapman, smudged. It is like the lower case S I did when learning to write, with an end flourish. Chapman could not be anything else.

    "Olla" is in inverted commas, as is "Breakfast", so could well not be a POW, and the initials need a new photo or close up.

    Which leaves Nathan: usually get a Jones after that. I did wonder if the two loops looking like a butterfly sucking nectar could be a K and the surname was Key/Kez or could be a W for Wey/Wez.
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Sorry guys my error here, just found that I forgot sheet 2 :(

    Odise - ?? no luck

    Ackerman - done OK with that

    A V Katzeff - have found a D Katzeff

    "Breakfast" - no idea

    E H Cowling - have found an E W H Cowling - looks OK

    ....bertson - only SA POW I can find in camp 4B is N H Robertson - so looks OK

    TD

    edited to add:

    S Cochrane - could be A A Cochrane or G D Cochrane bot SA POW's in 4B
     
  12. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    It looks like you're nearly there, TD. You've done a great deal of the jigsaw.

    Odise could be Oclise, his first name begins with a Q for certain.

    D for Dave Katzeff with a funny "D": the ink wasn't flowing from the Platignum pen when he signed it ( perhaps an Osmiroid, surely not a Parker ? )

    Cowling good.

    I think A Cochrane.

    Robertson does seem to be the full name, the beginning off the photo.

    It is down to Nathan and Quentin.

    Diane will wake up with the sun tomorrow and look them up in the Cape Town phone book.
     
  13. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Godd morning, the sun is shining and the phone book has come up trumps. Hope you agree

    J Q Ochse Maj. 188446 249174 OS4B

    Nathan or Nat being more troublesome.Will keep on trying

    Diane
     
  14. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Good Morning Diane from grey skies and drizzle in Essex.

    Overcast and raining hard earlier, about 6 degrees outside.

    Ochse obvious really, aren't they always when you have outside help ? Signature has got a long middle H. Congratulations.

    Nat Ramiley ? Don't think he's a Matt.

    John
     
  15. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    Just Googled the name and found J K (Chum) Ochise who was a Springbok rugby player in the early 50"s. He was born in 1925 and I think its a good bet that he was a relative.
     
  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Searching for all $B POW's with an initial N that might fit the bill:

    N E Shamley

    N E A Rogers

    TD
     
  17. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    Shamley rather than Rogers, methinks, because I can't see the G for Rogers. Thanks for the clues.
     
  18. DianeE

    DianeE Member

    There are very few SA newspaper archives on line. However I found that, according to the Eastern Province Herald dtd 1/8/45, the following POW"s were on their way home from "the north" to Port Elizabeth.


    Amongst the names were C F Heydenreich, A R Hinds, J M Oehley, N H Robertson and I J Zietsman
     
  19. papiermache

    papiermache Well-Known Member

    The Australian digital newspaper online resource called "Trove" has a few photographs of Australian POW rugby teams. Some photographs taken by guards bribed to take them, according to the reports.

    This is one newspaper report of a match at a different camp involving a South African team taken from a letter by a POW received in Australia in December 1944:

    The Murrumbidgee Irrigator ( Leeton, NSW )

    Tue 19 Dec 1944

    PLAY HARD FOOTBALL,
    IN P.O.W. CAMP '
    In a letter just to hand, dated Oc
    tober 14, -Sgt. Alf Palmer describes a
    Rugby football match played in' Sta:
    lag 357, Germany, between New Zea
    land and South Atrica teams, drawn
    from prisoners of war in that camp.
    The writer added that they ' were two
    heavy packs of forwards. First aid
    had to be rendered seven times, but
    for all that, the game was quite clean
    and an excellent exhibition of Rugby.
    South Africa won 5 to 3.
     
  20. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    From the names on the back of the photo in post 1

    Left column (top to bottom)

    Name: B S Van Der Merwe
    Rank: Cpl.
    Army Number: 195916
    POW Number: 274771


    Name: J V Rall
    Rank: Sgt.
    Army Number: S.A.P.195924
    POW Number: 222876


    Name: N E Shamley
    Rank: Sgt.
    Army Number: 186832
    POW Number: 274754


    Name: G J Coetsee
    Rank: Cpl.
    Army Number: 198248
    POW Number: 224944


    Name: H B Youngleson
    Rank: Pte
    Army Number: 32172
    POW Number: 263188


    Name: A R Hinds
    Rank: Cpl.
    Army Number: 11528
    POW Number: 262627


    Name: M L Moore
    Rank: Gunner
    Army Number: 114779
    POW Number: 225098


    Name: C A Van Der Westhuizen
    Rank: Pte
    Army Number: 107715
    POW Number: 274208


    Name: J McG Oehley
    Rank: Sgt.
    Army Number: 12162
    POW Number: 22416


    Name: N Hinds
    Rank: Cpl.
    Army Number: 221464
    POW Number: 224076


    Name: I J Zietsman
    Rank: Pte
    Army Number: 196164
    POW Number: 274782

    L.G.K.L - Unfound/unknown

    TD
     

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