SS Clan Lamont/HMS Lamont D-Day 176 Workshop and Park Company movements

Discussion in 'Royal Engineers' started by Nigel Simpson, Apr 22, 2020.

  1. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

  2. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Hi, service record now applied for, whether I receive anything in the current environment is another question. No I couldn't find any records of that book with my searches either.
     
  3. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

  4. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Good afternoon, following all of the tips above to one extent or another, I've put together a spreadsheet which details out what the 176 Workshop and Park Company were doing in 1944. There are lots of tabs on the bottom of the sheet:-
    - each month of the war diary typed out in full. This doesn't include the attached orders however.
    - a sheet covering how the 206 Company guys were split into 9 sections and dispatched to Normandy over D-Day and the following days from different parts of the South of England.
    - a list of some of the acronyms and terms used in the diary and what they mean

    One item I was confused by was the war diaries and their references to different vessels used to transport the company. I assume the War Diary is correct?
    - SS/HMS Clan Lamont J31 is referred to in the War Diary and Landing Tables
    - HMS Duke of Wellington J32 is referred to in the Landing Tables as having some (25) of the Company onboard but not mentioned in the war diaries
    - the War Diaries refer to another vessel called the SS Fort Reliance leaving Royal Albert Dock headed for Mike beach but went to Arromanches instead landing on the 11th June. I haven't been able to find any reference to that vessel at all. It had 22 men of the 176 Workshop and Park Company - Advance Workshop group. Might it be that as it is a liberty ship, the name is not recognised somewhere....any other explanation?

    Looking forward to the archives opening again so that I can get a copy of the other war years.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    Fort Reliance left the Thames at 06.30, ETA Gold Beach 11th. Convoy ETM5.

    Information from “The D Day Ships” by John de S. Winser.

    Regards

    Danny
     
  6. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    That’s great info, thanks Danny. Strange the vessels doesn’t seem to appear elsewhere on this site.

    Do you have the book and if so does it say what/who was on it?
     
  7. DannyM

    DannyM Member

    Hi,
    I do have the book but it has no information about the load carried on Fort Reliance.

    Attached is a sheet from the Force Movement Table London that has the details for 176 Company on it.

    Regards

    Danny

    DSCF4094  176  Coy  London.jpg
     
  8. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Thanks Danny, I've found the book second hand on Amazon so have ordered it. Looking forward to seeing what it says about the other 8 sections of the Company.

    The page seems to suggest 6 + 26 + 6 + 26 = 64 men. The war record talks of 22 men of the Workshop Section on the vessel.

    It refers to a further 31 embarked on Vessel "S18" from Royal Albert Docks on 8th June. Not sure what ship S18 was or if it was a misprint in the war record.

    6 men and three trucks also left for Royal Albert Docks on LST on 7th June.

    It's all a big jigsaw puzzle, very interesting.
     
  9. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Fort Reliance was one of a series of Canadian built ships about the same size as a Liberty her MT number was 80. The hulls of the Liberty and the Forts were almost the same, as they originated from the same shipyard drawing office in the UK - but that's another story. I will check on S18
     
  10. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    MT18 was the US Liberty Cyrus H K Curtis, but that may be different to S18
     
  11. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Great info thanks Roy.
     
  12. Iain D Dewar

    Iain D Dewar Member

    Found this, refers to renaming: HMS Lamont
     
  13. Roy Martin

    Roy Martin Senior Member

    Thanks Iain,

    I see that they start '1940-1948 used by Admiralty as Landing ship HMS Lamont', but they later get it right:

    '6.1944 crossed the English Channel five times with Invasion Troops for Normandy, serving as a Landing Ship Infantry (LSI)

    25.7.1944 commissioned into The Royal Navy and renamed H.M.S. LAMONT six days later.'

    The Navy took over a number of merchant LSIs after the D-Day landings. I see the artist has it right the Clan Lamont is shown with a Red Ensign and with what looks like her name and POR on the stern

    Roy
     
  14. Ewen Scott

    Ewen Scott Well-Known Member

    Clan Lamont was transferred from the Red Ensign to the White Ensign, and so becoming HMS Lamont, in July 1944 along with the 4 Empire class LSI so that their crews would all be clearly under RN orders when they were sent to the Pacific as part of Force X, to operate alongside the USN. It simplified the administration.

    The 4 RN Empires were then renamed in 1945 on return from the Pacific. It was intended to refit them and send them east again to increase the Far East amphibious forces in preparation for operations against Japan in 1946.

    Later the remaining Merchant Navy Empire LSI were also transferred to RN control and renamed before some were sent to the East Indies in 1945.
     
  15. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    I recently received the official war record of my father-in-law Ron Wagstaff. I’m trying to tie down his movements from 2nd June 1944 to the first mention of his name in the 176 Workshop and Park Company War Diary on 15th September 1944. Being a sapper i.e., not an NCO or Officer, his rank would not normally be mentioned in the war diary.

    He seems to have been sent to Europe or was at a pre-D-Day muster point from 2/6/1944.

    Referring to the War Diary, he was listed in the HQ section of the Company under L.T. C.E. Hingley. If this is the part of the unit he started with in early June that would have meant that he sailed on the SS Clan Lamont on 2nd June and landed on Mike Red beach on 6th June 1944.

    Has anyone got any suggestions on how to fill in the gap please?

    I've added a document which gives a number of dates from the official War Record. The document is quite hard to read so some of the text might not be quite correct hence the question marks.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Nigel,

    I attach the Unit Staff Tables for:
    HQ 176 Wksp & Pk Coy (less Wksp Secs & Adv Pk Sec) (incl FF Sec Type B)
    176 Wksp & Pk Coy (Four Adv Pk Secs)

    Although they do not specify the vessel, some of the Portions of Unit listed can be correlated with the latest available (dated 2 May 44 and amended as of 23 May) Landing Tables for First & Second Tides to JUNO, also attached:

    LTIN 1544 (Ferry Service from LSI J31 SS Clan Lamont) – Adv HQ with 4 Bicycles and 25 marching parties
    LTIN 1560 (HM LST 323) (Force J) – Two Adv Secs with 42 marching parties
    LTIN 1564 (US LST 385) (Force L) – Adv HQ with two Jeeps, one 3 ton GS & two MCs with 9 vehicle parties
    LTIN 1565 (US LST 517) (Force L) – Two Adv Pk Secs with two 15 cwt GS and 4 vehicles parties

    (NB: for this unit, as compared with the earlier Landing Tables, only the LTINs of the LSsT change, but not the composition of each load.)

    and from the 3 Div Landing Table Second Tide, amended as of 26 May 44 (attached):

    LST LTIN 614 (hull number not known) – Two Adv Pk Secs with two 15 cwt GS 4 x 2, 4 vehicles parties and 42 marching parties

    I could not find the Adv Pk Recce Party of four (Lt Goulden) landing from LCI on QUEEN Sector on 6 Jun, as mentioned in your spreadsheet, in either the First or the Second Tide LTs, but the First Tide LT is a very early version, and in the 2nd Tide LT one sheet is missing for each of LTINs 601 & 605.
    Since LTIN 584 was planned (as of Mar 44) to include a "Recce Party Adv Pk Secs 180 Wksp and Pk Coy" of four (with 4 bikes) landing from LSI S72 by Ferry Service, my guess would be that "your" Recce Party was in one of those two LCI(L) LTIN 601 or 605.

    Finally, a couple of remarks on various points in your posts and spreadsheet:
    - I found no element of 176 Wksp & Pk Coy on LSI J32 (HMS Duke of Wellington). This must be one of the very few typos made by Trux.
    - Ferry Service from Clan Lamont was not necessarily performed by her LCA (558 Assault Flotilla), but by any craft (LCI(L), LCT, LCM...) allocated to the Ferry Service and available for the task.

    Michel
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2021
  17. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Many thanks for that Michel, I've spent quite a while away from this whilst waiting for the official war record for Ron to come from there MOD so just getting back into it. Currently putting the info you provided into the spreadsheet to summarise it all. No doubt there'll be a few more questions coming.
    There were circa 226 names I've found from various places in the unit in total, 22 of them not in the unit photo (including Ron) from sometime before departure. Neither the photo nor the typed list of men I have have a date on them sadly.
    Unless one of the sheets is a duplication of something else, the total number from the sheets appears to be 247 men. The war diary which I've looked at totals 206 who landed between the 6th and 15th June 1944.
    I don't suppose that there is a record of who was on each ship?
     
  18. Such records were necessarily written by each unit before embarkation, but few have survived. If there is none in the War Diary, then chances are they have disappeared, unless one of the copies (e.g. to Movement Control) was kept somewhere.
     
  19. Nigel Simpson

    Nigel Simpson Member

    Thanks once again Michel. I think I feel pretty comfortable that he was there in the thick of it. Sad as is often said that I didn't speak to him about it, only learning of his participation after his death. Last time I looked, the Royal Engineers Museum weren't taking enquiries. I'll have to look there again.
     
  20. I just noticed I forgot to include the LT Sheets for LTIN 1544. I attach them now.

    SS Clan Lamont J31 was part of Sailing Group 324(b) and was planned to load troops at 40 Berth (Test Quays), Southampton, from 1600 hrs D Minus 4 (1 Jun 44).

    This fits nicely with the War Diary for Party 1, thus in LTIN 1544.

    Party 2 was split between LTIN 1564 & 1565 (Force L).

    Party 3 was in LTIN 1560 (Force J)

    Party 4 was most probably in one of the nine LCI(L) LTINs 3114 to 3122 in Sailing Group 5, Force L and not of the 3 Div Second Tide as I suggested in my previous post, because the latter embarked at Southsea and not at Newhaven as stated for Party 4 in the War Diary.

    Party 5 was in LTIN 614

    Michel
     

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