South Africans in Italian POW Camps

Discussion in 'South African' started by HilikusZA, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Not sure where to start. I'm looking for information on Schalk Jacobus Du Plooy HATTINGH 1924-1988.
    All I know is that he was shot down and was a POW in Italy until the end of the war. Would also like to find his service no. to try and get some files from the Military archives.
     
  2. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Tolken,

    Welcome aboard, you can see from this thread (not the only one) there is expertise here - hopefully they will be along soon.

    Is there any other information you hold? Even a Date of Birth can help.

    I have found a genealogy website that states his DoB was 5/3/1924 and he died 1/1/1998. Is that correct? From: Schalk Jacobus DuPlooy Hattingh, b8c7d4e10f9g1h4

    When you say:
    The war involving Italy ended in September 1943, the vast majority of Allied PoW were rounded up by the Germans and moved northwards into German-occupied territories. A few escaped back to Allied lines, a good number stayed with the Partisans and others died.
     
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  3. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Tolken,

    I have checked on the list of South African Airmen held as POWs in Italy ( WO 392/21, the National Archives, London) and he doesn't appear. I have interpreted this as meaning that he was shot down in the late summer of 1943 - the list was published in August 1943 by the International Red Cross but was not up to date where many POWs were concerned.

    The Italians signed an armistice with the Allies on 8 September 1943. The Germans quickly occcupied the country and sent those internees who hadn't managed to escape from their camps shortly after the Armistice to Stalags in Germany, Austria or Poland. The only camps in Italy between 1943-5 were Dulags - temporary camps for recaptured escapers awaiting transfer to Germany, or hospital camps, such as the one at Mantova (Mantua). If Shalk remained in Italy he was either in hiding with at family or operating with a band of partisans - he certainly wasn't in a camp unless it was a hospital.

    I have two suggestions - contact the International Red Cross on the next 'open date' which is in May. Get in there within minutes of the opening or you will be unlucky and will have to wait several months to try again.

    If you are on Facebook that's always worth a try - post his name, the fact that he was shot down in Italy, and a picture.

    I will have another search and will edit this post,

    Best wishes,

    Vitellino

    Edited: Wasn't taken to Germany, too late for the 1943 register, but in Italy. Hospital is the most likely answer from what you have posted below.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2022
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  4. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Thank you for your insightful reply and trouble looking up, Vitellino.
    I guess Schalk might have been in a hospital, since my brother-in-law has his helmet with blood stains. Schalk hardly mentioned the war to his children, so it is a bit of a conundrum for now.
    I have tried the Facebook Group South Africans in ww1, ww2 and Korea and found out that there was a D.R. Hattingh that was also shot down, (first name Derrick?).
    I'll definitely try the Red Cross, didn't even think of them.
    With much appreciation, Tolken
     
  5. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Yes, David, that should be Schalk's profile on Geni (their server is down at the moment). I have a similar profile for him on Family Search. The birth date is correct. Death date 24/1/1988.
    I am so relieved that there are experts here, as I am somewhat clueless with this subject matter.

    Somehow, I think Schalk was shot down during the time that Russia took over Sevastopol in Crimea on 9 May 1944.

    Thanks for your help.
     
  6. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

  7. Tolken

    Tolken Member

     
  8. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Tolken,

    One approach I use is to check the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for deaths, so I have checked for South African Air Force losses in May 1944. There are fifty-six dead, many serving with the RAF and a number are buried in Italy, airfields there being used for missions across Southeastern Europe. A couple of things stand out, two are buried in Rumania from 178 Squadron RAF, who died on 8/5/1944. See for one of them: Lieutenant D P McGee | War Casualty Details | CWGC

    Wiki for 178 Squadron shows was a bomber squadron, with Liberators (capable of long ranges) and was in August 1944 they were used to drop supplies to the Warsaw Rising: No. 178 Squadron RAF - Wikipedia Their cemetery north of Bucharest is halfway between the capital and Ploesti, a town amidst an oilfield of great value to Germany and a frequent target of bombing raids.

    It appears from the CWGC cemetery list that air raids were mounted on 6th May, five dead; 7th May eleven dead and on 8th May twenty-one dead. I have not examined which RAF squadrons were involved.

    The CWGC cemetery notes state:
    Link: Bucharest War Cemetery | Cemetery Details | CWGC

    Three other squadrons had losses in May 1944, SAAF Nos. 21, 24 & RAF 37 and all were bombers.

    Curious that you refer to:
    Why?
     
  9. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    David, he was shot down, but survived. My brother-in-law has the helmet with blood stains inside. Vitellino suggested that he might have been in hospital in Italy.
    I cannot imagine how someone could survive being shot down or maybe I'm using the wrong terminology?

    Thanks for those other links. It could very well be that some of the other members of Schalk's squadron did not survive. It must have been traumatic either way, since Schalk hardly ever spoke of his experiences in the war.
     
  10. Tolken

    Tolken Member

     

    Attached Files:

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  11. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    This is now becoming too complicated for me!!

    Is the man in the photo the Shalk Hattingh you are looking for?

    What links him with Sebastpol other than the date?

    Are we sure that your Shalk Hattingh was shot down in Italy? What is the evidence?
    What is the evidence that he remained in Italy until the end of the war?

    Assuming he was shot down over Italy, I have discovered that he does not appear in the International Red Cross list of SAAF members being held in Italy in a document dated August 1943. This means his plane was shot down after that date. He would have parachuted out, would have been injured either during the shooting down of the plane or on landing, taken prisoner and admitted to a German field hospital - a Lazarett.

    Have you tried to obtain his service records using name, date of birth etc but without his service number?
    archive@dod.mil.za

    I am bowing out on this one.

    Vitellino
     
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  12. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Thank you so much for your help Vitellino. I sincerely appreciate all the help of both you and David.
    I've contacted another family member and they think he was shot down close to Monte Casino line (not sure what that means yet, but will start reading up) and that he was taken care of by an Italian family until the end of the war.

    I'll write the Military Archives and hope for the best.
    Oh yes, that is Schalk in the photo.
     
  13. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Hello Tolkien,

    I couldn't resist having another look at the thread and now something is beginning to make sense.

    If he was shot down near Cassino that gives us a date. We are talking about the first five months of 1944.

    We now need to look at SAAF losses for that period to try to identify the plane.

    If he was looked after by an Italian family then my Facebook suggestion is a good one, but first it is necessary to try to pin down the date and area.

    Vitellino
     
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  14. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Thanks Vitellino, it is a great help to learn that Cassino narrows it down to Jan-May 1944.
     
  15. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    Please apply for his records.

    I have checked the three SAAF planes shot down in that period whose crews were buried in Cassino War Cemetery and he doesn't appear among the survivors.

    When you've got them it might be possible to start looking for the family.

    Vitellino
     
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  16. Tolken

    Tolken Member

    Thank you so much for your time and effort Vitellino.
     
  17. vitellino

    vitellino Senior Member

    That's fine.
     
  18. Karen Vickers

    Karen Vickers New Member

    Hello all. I am trying to do some research on my grandfather Vivian Vickers. Service number 103513. We know that he was taken to Camp 85, Tuturano Transit Camp in Italy and then was moved on to Stalag 4B in Germany in approx September 1943. I would be very grateful if any further information was found. Thank you.
     
  19. Karen Vickers

    Karen Vickers New Member

    Hello George, can you please tell me what site you got this document from. I am trying to locate my GF Vivian Vickers. He was in Stalag 4B and Camp 85 Tuturano Thank you.
     
  20. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Patron Patron

    Karen,

    Welcome aboard. George aka Geotrac has not logged onto this site for nearly six years. You can view all his postings by hovering over his avatar and chose look at profile. As a new member you cannot send Private Messages (PM) until you post five times. In a moment I will send him a PM, assuming the email used at registration remains valid and he is still interested.

    The only document Geotrac refers to is the blue highlighted text; namely: Powvets

    Your GF does not appear elsewhere here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2023

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