South African Corps Of Signals - Italy, East & North Africa

Discussion in 'Royal Signals' started by Dylan Ogle, Sep 8, 2011.

  1. Dylan Ogle

    Dylan Ogle Junior Member

    Good Evening everyone, just joined this wonderful site from sunny South Africa and hoping to learn tons from each one of you. I would like to ask if anyone could perhaps provide me with information as to how one would go about interpreting my grandfathers, Owen John Ogle's (Signalman, Service Number 251558V) military records as they contain acronyms etc which are foreign to me.

    His records show that he served in the following units and campaigns as a Despatch Rider and Signalman in the SACS:

    EAST AFRICA: (2 coy GHO Sigs SACS)
    NORTH AFRICA: (3 coy SA L of C Signals SACS)
    ITALY: (17 Armd Bde Sig Son SACS)

    [​IMG]

    Can anyone perhaps point me in the direction as to where I could possibly find out these units activities during WW2. I would also like to find out how one could possibly go about obtaining photographs of my Grandfather during this time as I only have one of him (far right) and would really love to obtain more if possible.

    [​IMG]

    OWEN JOHN OGLE - FAR RIGHT

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dylan
    Pretoria might be your best bet for records as that is your seat of Government etc

    The initials you show are fairly standard as I am sure you know as both 1 & 2nd Divs fought in the Desert - not sure which one was at Ethiopia- and 6th SA Armoured took over from us at Agnagi in Italy after the Liri Valley battles and went on to Trasimeno - Chiusi and Florence with British Xth Corps in the US 5th Army

    LofC = Line of Communications.....GHQ = General Headquarters - SACS= Sth African Corps of Signals - switched to 6th SA Armoured Div for Italy - with 17th Tank Brigade

    Cheers
     
  3. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    In Italy, the last unit was most likely the 17th South African Armoured Brigade Signal Squadron, which would have been attached to the 11th South African Armoured Brigade of the 6th South African Armoured Division.

    There was no 17th Tank Brigade in the South African Army.
     
  4. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dryan -
    I am most fully aware that there was NO Tank bde in the South African Armoured Division - at least when they took over from OUR 21st TANK bde whichlong with 25th TANK bde of Gerry Chesters whohad brought them through the Gustav and Hiter lines handed over the runningto the Sth Africans

    Inasmuch as I had assumed an innocence of Military expresions by Dylan - I merely was pointing out to Dylan that the 17thARMOURED bde he mentioned meant TANKs and NOT a Tank bde - or dinky toys....

    not wishing to teach you how to suck eggs and I am sure that you are aware that there were only two TANK bdes in Italy at that time - the 21st and 25th TANK bdes
    attachd to the 1st Canadian Division for close infantry support

    All other bdeswith Tanks weredesignated Armoured as they were- in the main lighter and faster such as Shermans
    Cheers
     
  5. minden1759

    minden1759 Senior Member

    Tom.

    I seem to have read somewhere that the 2 NZ Div converted 4 NZ Inf Bde into 4 NZ Armd Bde before landing in Italy from Egypt. They certainly had 4 NZ Armd Bde under command at Cassino because it turned out that they needed more infantry - it only left them with 5 NZ Inf Bde & 6 NZ Inf Bde and who can blame them. You can never have enough infantry!

    Regards

    FdeP
     
  6. dryan67

    dryan67 Senior Member

    Tom:

    I'm sorry. I meant my comment purely in the interest of accuracy not as a criticism.

    David
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    David - Thank you for your apology

    Minden -

    NO one is disputing the fact that the NZ division was to all intents and purposes an Armoured Division at Cassino - what the dispute over the South African Armoured Div. was the difference of an Armoured bde to a Tank Bde.

    To reiterate - a Tank Bde was an heavier Bde with say Churchill Tanks and very closely supporting an Infantry Assault Division, such as the Canadian 1st Div.

    Whereas an Armoured bde was composed of lighter - faster Sherman type Tanks in order to pursue the enemy once the heavier Tanks had broken through the enemy defence lines.

    This concept is illustrated in the RAC badge of the Mailed fist (Churchills) and the four flying arrows ( Shermans) alongside.

    BY the end of the war in NWE and the advent of "Battle Tanks" all Tank bdes were designated "Armoured" OR Armoured / Engineer with "funnies' as it was alleged that the newer Tanks - i.e Comet - Challenger - Chieftain et al could do both tasks - In Italy we had to follow suit, thus the 21st TANK bde was made into an ARMOURED bde - with the same Tanks !

    And the 25th TANK bde was no longer as 142 RAC was broken up - NIH moved to take the place of the broken up 145 RAC in 21st Bde- 51st RTR was then converted with funnies into an Armoured/Engineer unit.

    Trust this clarifies the problem

    Cheers

    Cheers
     
  8. Dylan Ogle

    Dylan Ogle Junior Member

    Thank you to everyone who has replied thus far. I did obtain his records from Pretoria but they are written in a summarised version which requires some informed military insight, which I unfortunately do not posses at this stage.
     
  9. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Dylan
    seems to me that until you publish the items which are evading your knowledge of informed military insight of the summarised version of records from Pretoria- then you are liable to remain in that condition - so please publish the items of the problem in order that many forum members with that informed military insight can do their best to clarify the records.
    Cheers
     

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