Should this airman have his bar to the AFC listed on his memorial?

The CWGC does not list list this Airman's Bar to his AFC - Should they and should it be on his memorial?

Also there is a mention of "OC" would that be Officer Commanding?

June 15th 1939
Air Force Cross
Fl Lt John William McGuire


Honours and Awards:
John William McGuire

Service Number: 34211

Rank: Wing Commander

Service: Royal Air Force

Conflict: Second World War, 1939-1945

Award: Bar to Air Force Cross

Date of London Gazette: 11 June 1942

Location in London Gazette: Page 2515, position 1

 

I don't think that it is normal practice to list bars on memorials.

 

I've found two headstones with an award and bars inscribed and at a couple on the Malta Memorial with DFC and bar inscribed.

Another well known one in Durnbach War Cemetery

 

There are many headstones and memorials that have their bars listed in both world wars however they are for "in action".

The AFC is awarded for service/heroism "not in action" against the enemy.

Seems odd that there would be a differentiation.

Cheers

Geoff

 

Could it be something to do with the Bar awarded posthumously?

I.e. the awards listed were those current at time of death?

 

My impression is that all awards should be displayed on the CWGC entry / headstone, and as has been seen there is precedent looking at the headstone in post #3

As for "awarded posthumously" - in my opinion there is no such thing (except for VC & MiD) - he was awarded the Bar to his AFC prior to his death, it just happened to have been promulgated afterwards (as can be seen from the LG page).





https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35586/page/2515

 

Yes, I agree, this seems rather confusing.

From Post #1:

DATE: March 24, 1942
TAKE-OFF POINT: Boscombe Down, Wilts
CRASH LOCATION: Lytchett Minster, Dorset
AIRCRAFT TYPE & SERIAL: Consolidated Liberator Mk II AL546
CREW FATALITIES: Wg Cdr J.M. McGuire AFC, OC Performance Test Squadron A&AEE (Wg Cdr McGuire was later awarded a posthumous Bar to his AFC)
(my edit)

I also am not aware that anything other than VC and MiD could be awarded posthumously.

Perhaps an error in the records somewhere?

 

Thank you all!

Seems fairly straight forward from this end, So I will send a query to CWGC.

Another question;

How can I find out the names of the crew who abandoned the aircraft to complete my file on this loss.

Regards

Geoff

 

The Aviation Safety Network doesn't have any further info

http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=74549

The Liberator was being flown on a series of climb tests when the starboard outer engine over-speeded and caught fire. Wing Commander J.M. MGuire AFC, OC of the Performance Testing Squadron of the A&AEE, ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft which they did successfully. However the Liberator broke up before Wg Cdr McGuire could escape and he was killed.

 

http://www.aviationarchaeology.co.uk/AA/ev_liberatoral546.html

Liberator AL546 took-off from Boscombe Down at 1448 hours on the 24th March, 1942. This was a Mark II aircraft with slightly over 47 hours on the airframe and its duty was detailed as experimental non-operational flying training with the A. and A.E.E. At the controls as 1st. Pilot was Wing Commander J.W. McGuire, AFC. His hours on Liberators totalled 32 and on all types an impressive 1,760 hours. His 2nd Pilot was Warrant Officer F.J. Robinson, this was to be his first flight on this type. The 1st Engineer was Corporal R.M. Leach and 2nd Engineer Aircraftsman 1st Class B.G. Hibbs. Also on board, as civilian technical observer, was Mr. J. J. Unwin of the Scientific Office of the Ministry of Aircraft Production.

After nearly two hours of flight, the aircraft was in the vicinity of Poole at 5,000 feet. The aircraft had been engaged on partial climbs at an all up weight of 50,000lbs. The flight so far had been troublesome, as electrical problems had been encountered from the outset of the flight. With these problems apparently overcome the crew noticed that the starboard outer engine nacelle was on fire. A sudden change in lateral trim was felt and McGuire immediately ordered "Abandon aircraft". Ground observers stated that the fire was seen many minutes before anyone left the aircraft.

One of these ground observers was Mr. J. Soffe. He recalls seeing the aircraft flying a straight course N.W. from Poole on a bright, sunny afternoon with black smoke pouring back from an engine. As he watched, part of the wing broke away and spun down, the aircraft then immediately went into a very fast spin. Simultaneously, he saw the parachutes of the crew members that had baled open out. This was quickly followed by a huge cloud of black smoke going up as AL546 hit the ground. The whole scene was made more unreal for him as he heard the whine of the plane going down and the crash of the aircraft hitting after the cloud of smoke went up.
What had actually happened was that the engine fire had weakened the wing structure and this had caused the wing outboard of the starboard outer to break away. The starboard outer, RAF no. 8670, makers no. 204903, with 64 hours running time and seven months after installation, then broke away from the airframe. The 14 cylinder Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp radial plummeted into the ground near the Beacon Hill anti-aircraft site at Upton.
Three of the crew and the civilian technical observer managed to parachute to safety out of the open bomb bay. W/O Robinson was injured in a bad landing and AC1 Hibbs landed upside down in a tall tree. All four came down around South Lytchett Manor. Unfortunately, McGuire was unable to get out. He had held the aircraft steady against the changes in lateral trim whilst his crew had baled, but as soon as they were clear had become trapped by the vicious earthwards spin.
At 1650 hours, 2 hours and 2 minutes after take-off, Liberator AL546 crashed at Race Farm, behind Mr. Abbot’s farmhouse, killing McGuire instantly.

There were almost 1,500 gallons of aviation fuel left on board and this erupted into a terrific fire. Burning fuel cascaded onto the roof of the nearby farmhouse and set that on fire also. Pieces of twisted Duralumin sheet, many stamped "Alclad" were scattered across the Huntick road and around the massive crater.

The Accident Investigation Branch of the RAF investigated the crash and spent several weeks at the crash site. Arc lights were set up around the crater and the recovery operation and search for the engines continued into the hours of darkness each night.

Although the four that baled were extremely lucky to escape when they did, their luck did not hold. Mr. J. Unwin was killed when Halifax W7917 crashed at Sutton Scotney on the 4th February, 1943; again he was acting as technical observer. Warrant Officer Robinson was promoted to Flight Lieutenant and was killed in a mid-air collision along with R.M. Leach on the 10th September, 1943. The Lancaster he was piloting, JA894, was in collision with Oxford EB987 near High Post airfield. Only the 2nd Engineer survived the war and, indeed, Mr. Hibbs now lives in Dorset.

Today it is difficult to see where AL546 crashed as the RAF were fairly efficient in their recovery operation; also the area has been planted over with pine trees and this has softened the contours of the crater. But some relics were missed and I have a twisted propeller blade, an engine valve and a plate stating "Curtiss Electric Propellers" from this aircraft.


Small testament to the sacrifice of McGuire.

 

Fantastic Dave - Thank you.

Should allow me to write his bio with this amount of factual evidence.

Some further research has shown him to be a very determined and brave individual.

I would also say that the Bar to his 1939 AFC was due to his work in England after the declaration of war and this:

He also had a sense of humour:

Cheers

Geoff

 

Also found this in the State Library of Victoria however instead of Suzanne it is labelled Mrs N. McGuire?



Decorated at Buckingham Palace investiture [picture]

[ca. 1943]
Available online.

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• Title: Decorated at Buckingham Palace investiture [picture]
• Contributor(s): Pix Photos.
• Date(s): ca. 1943
• Description: photograph : gelatin silver ; 16.0 x 11.0 cm. approx.
• Copyright status: This work is out of copyright
• Terms of use: No copyright restrictions apply.
• Cite as: Cite as: Argus Newspaper Collection of Photographs, State Library of Victoria.
• Identifier(s): Accession no(s) H99.206/3466
• Subjects: Australia. Royal Australian Air Force -- Medals, badges, decorations, etc; World War, 1939-1945 -- Women -- England; Military decorations -- England; Gelatin silver prints
• Index terms: World War II; medals; bravery awards; Australians; England
• Notes: Stamped/inscribed on slip of paper adhered to verso.
• Contents/Summary: Mrs. N. McGuire (Perth, W.A.), a transport driver for the U.S. Army, she received a Bar to the A.F.C. awarded to her late husband Wing Commander John William McGuire.
• Source/Donor: Gift of The Age (Melbourne, Vic.), 1976.
• Series/Collection: Argus newspaper collection of war photographs. World War II.
• Link to digitised item: http://handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/208771
• Link to this record: http://search.slv.vic.gov.au/primo_library/libweb/action/dlDisplay.do?vid=MAIN&reset_config=true&docId=SLV_VOYAGER1783158

 

I have forwarded these details to the CWGC and await their response.

Cheers

Geoff

 

This year I contacted CWGC about the missing bar to the D.F.C of W/C Mark H BROWN KIA 12/11/1941, I also told them about the award of his Czech Military Cross. They were happy to list the Military Cross, but I beleive the bar has caused more problems for them and is still not listed. I believe they have to alter the headstone.

Mark

 

I have received a positive response to this query/request from CWGC.

Cheers

Geoff

 

excellent work Geoff well done


regards
Clive

 

Great news here from the CWGC after a prompt I had forgot to do!
Dear Mr Swallow,
Thank you for your email

I can confirm that the inscription of Wing Commander John William McGuire in Southampton Old Crematorium has now been corrected to include his awards in full, this being A F C and Bar. This is shown in the photograph attached.

Thank you again for bringing this issue to our attention.


Yours sincerely,
Paul Davis
CWGC Enquiries section

 

Further to the subject of bars to awards and their listing by the CWGC, I list below the following holders of the DFC who are currently in the process of having the Bar to the D.F.C listed by the CWGC :-

37904 W/C M.H BROWN DFC KIA 12.11.1941
123201 F/L R.A MILLER DFC KIA 27.4.1945
39330 S/L N. ORTON DFC KIA 17.9.1941 54 SQN
120392 F/L F.D.J THOMPSON DFC KIA 12.3.1943 7 SQN
37776 W/C P.F WEBSTER DSO, DFC DIED 1.3.1944
37645 S/L J. H WEDGWOOD DFC KIA 17.12.1942
39918 W/C R.J WELLS DFC DIED 13.3.1942
80424 F/L E.L WILLIAMS DFC KIA 14.2.1945
89058 S/L J.E WILLSON DFC KIA 27.8.1943 153 SQN

+ 45546 S/L E.A DEVERILL DFC, AFC, DFM 17.12.1943 97 SQN - Augsburg raider

Mark

 

Recent D.F.C additions to the CWGC database (RAF) :-

161594 F/L A. DRINKALL DFC KIA 6.8.1944 83 SQN
32201 W/C I.J McGHIE DFC KIA 18.8.1943 619 SQN
102299 F/O F.J PILE DFC KIA 15.1.1943 47 SQN
44779 S/L W.M PROTHEROE DFC KIA 13.4.1942 158 SQN
158717 P/O L. STEVENSON DFC KIA 23.9.1943 97 SQN
116418 F/L W.M THEOBALD DFC KIA 12.6.1943 78 SQN
37436 F/L J.T WEBSTER DFC KIA 5.9.1940 41 SQN
40276 F/O A.T WILLIAMS DFC KIA 9.6.1940 263 SQN
145900 F/L D.A.C WILKINSON DFC BEM KIA 3.10.1943 61 SQN
67642 F/O T.R.R WOOD DFC KIA 3.6.1942 115 SQN

+A.F.C

90240 S/L W.B BEALE AFC AAF KIFA 4.9.1941
34069 S/L R.R GREGORY AFC KIFA 7.9.1945
34109 S/L D.C OLIVER AFC KOAS 13.8.1940 53 SQN
364156 W/O D.J PITCHER AFC KIA 3.7.1941 127 SQN

+A.F.M

1393818 F/S H.A DE FREITAS AFM KIFA 5.5.1943 59 OTU
942217 CPL C.F HAND AFM (1921) KIFA 6.7.1943 16 OTU

+D.F.M

127799 F/O D.J PRYTHERCH DFM KIA18.6.1943 72 SQN
1474213 SGT C.L SPINK DFM KIA 22.10.1943 103 SQN
615619 SGT A.E WALKER DFM KIA 2.9.1940 144 SQN

+B.E.M

45096 P/O F.W HOLDEN BEM KIA 18.4.1941 61 SQN

+M.C (WW1)

86533 F/L W.H NICHOLSON MC DIED 15.2.1943 Harwell

Also

+George Medal

Reginald George MORGAN GM Executed 15.10.1942 Gilbert Islands

Mark

 

Whilst we're on the subject, the CWGC have a "Drop Down" feature for Honours and Awards which is a pre prepared List, and does not have any "and Bar" option. Entering "and Bar" into the Additional Information field throws up 407 which tend to be addresses, such as Perry Bar etc.