There is a problem with not forgiving that seems to permiate certain aspects of culture and society. I have experienced this problem first hand. We'll call it generational guilt. First example was when we were on base at Pearl Harbor. I was with a Japanese girl and her 1/2 American 1/2 Japanese fiance. We were driving around and went past some buildings that still had the bullet holes from the Dec 7th raid. She, the fiance, began to cry and became apologetic. So I said, Why are you upset J. You had nothing to do with this. And the fact is even if her father was Yamamoto she still had nothing to do with the raid. Part 2 my neighbor introduced me to his wife. I said I detected an accent. Are you from Austria? She said no Germany. Then in an apolgetic way proceeded to say that she wished she was from France(You know me I had to supress my laugh on that one, France that is.). So we had a very uncomfortable conversation about Germany. I feel that this is just the tip of the iceberg of generational guilt that exists in Germany and Japan but possibly other nations. What's unsetteling about this is the guilt part. The same feeling was around in the 20s and 30s in Germany and that caused an ordinary people to do some very morally disturbing things. Reference Eric Braeden/Hans Gudheist. He has a foundation that deals with the German legacy of the war. As for the question: Should Veterans forgive? Only they can.
Well I'm not sure. Certainly, I do not personally agree with continuing to blame a whole people for crimes perpetrated by their forebears. Whilst there is undoubtedly some 'generational guilt' there is also unfortunately, as far as the Japanese go, a certain 'generational ignorance' that should never have been allowed to occur. Why is it that most Germans are aware of Nazi atrocities, but that very few Japanese know of Japanese atrocities? It is not about punishing the descendants of those who perpetrated the crimes...it is about telling the truth and remembering those who sufferred. Are veterans the only ones who possess the right to forgive? Perhaps someone should ask the fathers/mothers/sons/daughters/brothers/sisters/ wives of those who died at places such as Parit Sulong how they feel about things? Rgds Tim
Dude, we have a whole generation of brats who don't even know who Winston Churchill is! Political correctness is a curse and should be stamped on and then jumped upon before being shot through the head and dumped in a frozen river in Siberia!
Dude, we have a whole generation of brats who don't even know who Winston Churchill is! Political correctness is a curse and should be stamped on and then jumped upon before being shot through the head and dumped in a frozen river in Siberia! In the name of St. George, I knight thee...O Knight of the Garter.
Well I'm not sure. as far as the Japanese go, a certain 'generational ignorance' that should never have been allowed to occur. but that very few Japanese know of Japanese atrocities?it is about telling the truth and remembering those who sufferred. Tim The Japanese ignorance is called Bushido. The Samurai Caste system and Shinto religion is part of Japanese culture. That same ignorance brought them to World economic dominance in the 80s-till the mid 90s contagen.
Sorry chaps. I don't give a toss about Winston Churchill. I wasn't aware that he was ever accused of war crimes! Why is Hitler classed everywhere as a lunatic, but Hirohito, who was responsible for comparable atrocities, remains unknown? Why does everyone know of Nuremburg, but few know of Tokyo? Why does everyone know of Auschwitz, but few know of Nanking, Laha and Parit Sulong. As far as Bushido goes? I have seen this old chestnut here before. Bushido does not, and never will, excuse slavery and mass murder. It does not excuse the need to suitably acknowledge past wrongs, as has been accomplished in Germany. I am not saying I personally do not 'forgive' the Japanese. As herroberst has alluded I agree that I personally do not have the right to as I wasn't there....but some of my family were and I know how they feel about the matter. Many Australian veterans and their families who have fought over sixty years for adequate recognition and compensation. Many veterans and their families still harbour a deep bitterness towards the Japanese. Perhaps things would be somewhat different today if Japanese war crimes were NOT largely forgotten? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers — and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4 % chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30 %.[Rgds Tim
I don't think that the perpetrators of Oradour and many other atrocities can ever be forgiven, but I also don't think that we can expect every German of the wartime generation to share in the collective guilt either. And above all, we must never forget. the nazis never reached above 40% in elections see http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/redschl/historydocs/Germany%201919-1939%20GCSE/Nazi%20election%20results%201924-1933.doc the reason why the NSDAP got so many votes is the extremely unfair versailler vertrag.Every nation would have voted for radicalists ( thought of being peacekeepers !) if the nation had an versailles. I see no reason why every german has to be blamed for atrocities done by nazis , at least half of the german population ( probably MUCH more ) were absolutely no nazis . The problem was that many germans at this time ( and not only germany , the whole world) were extremely slaves of authoritarian persons and most people did not know to take over personal responsibility because they never learned it and wanted no trouble. Every men who did not want to join the wehrmacht had to reckon he could be SHOT because they were Kriegsdienstverweigerer. Not to forget is important - but also never forget the senseless bloody massacres like the bombs on Dresden who were just a torture on the civilists ( 130 000+ were killed among them many people fled from the east and even foreign workers) and had absolutely no ascendency for the end of the war . Or the english ILLEGAL sea blockade during 1914-18 during which 600 000 beggarly living germans STARVED . Or Hiroshima...
the Not to forget is important - but also never forget the senseless bloody massacres like the bombs on Dresden who were just a torture on the civilists ( 130 000+ were killed among them many people fled from the east and even foreign workers) and had absolutely no ascendency for the end of the war . Tyrulf, your point is taken, but... You are using the David Irving statistics for Dresden, which are completely inaccurate. The actual number of deaths was tabulated by the Dresden municipal government at 25,000. Josef Goebbels added a "zero" to that figure for propaganda purposes. Frederick Taylor's book "Dresden" and the numerous books on the Irving-Lipstadt trial show how the fraud was committed by Goebbels and continued by Irving.
Bushido does not, and never will, excuse slavery and mass murder. Many Australian veterans and their families who have fought over sixty years for adequate recognition and compensation. Many veterans and their families still harbour a deep bitterness towards the Japanese. Tim Agreed and also that it does seem that Japan escaped alot of ridicule received by the Germans. I just think the Bushido ideal is an interesting phenomenon. Japanese business considers itself at war more than in competition.
25 000 maybe among the dresden burgess .. but there were about 500 000 displaced persons at that time in the streets... nobody has ever counted how many of these unknown people were killed
25 000 maybe among the dresden burgess .. but there were about 500 000 displaced persons at that time in the streets... nobody has ever counted how many of these unknown people were killed No, the Dresden cops and officials did a very good job of counting the dead. We have Goebbels and David Irving to blame for making it an event that "balances" the Allies and Germans in World War II.
how where they able to count bodies in an absolutely destroyed city ? every namable historian is of the opinion that 25000 are much to less not to forget the extremely historical worth of the buildings
yes, i think old veterans should forgive their former enemies. Me being a German in America will German war veterans for family members isn't the greatest when it comes to American History class. I get called a Nazi and a Germ often. But I also think the axis should forgive their former enemies, and most definitely those who they killed in the holocaust.
I get called a Nazi and a Germ often. Sue the bastards for racial comments. Say that it is a detriment to your education and then take martial arts.
Screw Dresden! Their pathetic correctionist whinging 60 years after the event in an attempt to create some sort of 'balance' really hacks me off. Nearly as much as the Japanese pretending to be victims during their hiroshima/nagasaki commemorations. The Situation is total war. The agressor nations had to be struck as hard as humanly possible and Bomber Harris is a hero in my opinion, the few 'extreme' attacks carried out by the allied nations during the war don't even begin to balance the damage and terror inflicted by the agressor/axis nations. They behaved like bastards and the only response was to try to match their agression or be utterly overwhelmed and destroyed.This was a serious matter of the survival of nations, any step towards beating or demoralising the axis was justified. I'll say it again, 'You reap what you sow'.... ooh, i'd best go for a lie down now.....
how where they able to count bodies in an absolutely destroyed city ? every namable historian is of the opinion that 25000 are much to less not to forget the extremely historical worth of the buildings I think you have some reading to do to balance up your views. Try the Dresden chapter of Richard Evans' Telling Lies About Hitler.
and did all germans merit death and bombs ? at least half probably much more weren't nazis or just nominal members because they feared to be shot etc. mabye you should watch sophie scholl or other resistance groups to understand this. The thinking of every german being a nazi is nothing less as the impact of the British Propaganda - it is sure more easy to kill germans if you think all german are massacring nazis. 25000 are also British propaganda they were MUCH more there can be no doubt about this not to mention the extreme loss of historical objects .Dresden was the Paris of Germany. but your bombs hit everybody - in dresden there were even escaped prisoners of kz's at that time . Dresden was bombed in a time were it was nothing else then revenge .There were no military objects in this city just fugitives .The British knew that. how the british bask in their heroism and frankness killing defenseless old people and children really makes me sick. another fact britains do not know or do not want to know is that Stauffenberg tried to contact Churchill as he planned to assasssinate Hitler begging churchill to help his group . They never got an response because Churchill wanted to raze Germany to the ground and it would be fatal for the british propaganda moral that there exist germans who are no nazis and because of this it was never given ´to the press.
