There will always be those whose experiences will be carried with them, forever psychologically unable to forgive. As previously posted by someone there were warcrimes on all sides in the war, this is undisputed fact. The nazi regime was a dark period in european history and because it is so recent in our past forgiveness is hard even for the most devout of faith. I suppose that it will only be when we look far into the past from the future where objectivity between all the various regimes of the 20th century will be possible. A bit like looking now at the ancient empires of Rome, Greece, China and Egypt with its mass slavery and mass destruction such as the sweeping of Europe by the Mongol Empire, the horrific figures of these are less chilling doe to the intervening 500 years or so. Just a few thoughts. Regards MG
As stated in a previous reply,I agree......How can others who were not apart of their generation give their opinion as to who should forgive whom.... War is hell,the second World War saw many atrocities by armies against armies,against innocent peoples from many countries because of their place of birth,their religion or their beliefs. There were also many acts of kindness and respect between enemies just as there where acts of violence by ordinary people who took advantage of the situation they were in. I am of English and German decent ......and have always had a unique perspective of both World Wars.In the first war two of my GGUncles fought in the same battle at Passchendale and both died for their country,one english and one german.Both my GGRandfathers fought for both sides in that war. My English Grandfather fought at Dunkirk and as a member of the Norfolk Regiment was captured in Singapore and spent 3 years as a POW.I know he never forgave the Japanese and I believe he had every right to feel the way he did.i dont have the right to feel that way towards the Japanese.His life was never the same , he died 50 years after the war from illnesses he suffered during his imprisonment. My German grandfather fought on the Russian front and was captured and was on a train headed for Siberia.He jumped off the train and made it to Austria to allow himself to be captured by the British Army.His brother was not so lucky he went to Siberia and the Gulags and was never heard from again.My grandfather had no fondness for the russians,but again I dont have that right. My great Uncles fought in Africa with the 5th Army and at Normandy on the german side. Both my grandfathers met in the 60's and respected each other imensely they corrosponded and attended each others memorial services.Though technically they never fought each other.They forgave each other and became friends......but they never forgave the enemy they faced. I respect and owe so much to these two men and their brothers and all those who gave their lives so I may live with the freedoms I enjoy now. I have never looked down on their anamosities towards their wartime enemies.They earned the right to forgive or if they chose, not to forgive. But I would never assume to think I have that same right nor do I have any right to judge them. And I will always be proud to honor them both equally.......I am lucky my father,my uncles and cousins and I were even born......with all the male relatives that were lost in both wars.
(Heinz Rebing @ Dec 9 2005, 06:38 PM) [post=42883]As stated in a previous reply,I agree......How can others who were not apart of their generation give their opinion as to who should forgive whom.... But I would never assume to think I have that same right nor do I have any right to judge them. [/b] Let me preface this response with the fact that I do not hate any race of people today. Having said that I grew up in a post ww2 War service housing area in Australia where most of the returned servicemen had fought the Japanese or had been their guests for many years. I saw first hand the mental degredation and torment of these men. I saw (through the bottle) and heard about the demons they had to conquer, which some did.........some did not. I saw the result of these memories straining family relationships to the limit. I played with the children of these men and witnessed first hand the effect it had on them. You are correct that it is not up to me to forgive those Japanese soldiers however, I do have the right to hate them, and I hate them with a passion.
To Sapper!! I agree with You about Natzis crimes! That is something that we/world can never forget! BUT!!!!! In world history were many ugly things/actions! And not all agressors/killers/ocupants understand even nowdays what they have done! German people understand and feel sorry about they fathers have done! That is good point! That is something that we cant say about Russia! Do You saw the parade on Red plats in Moskau! Do You saw how full of proud they were. Do You saw how MRPutin justify commars action! Do You saw the veterans. You saw how proud they were! By the way if they were Young and also were members of Red army they killed innocent people just like Natzis did! How many people froze and die in Siberia because they(nowdaysgoodveterans) deport them? How many painters, sportsmans, politics(citizens of foreign inndependent country) frozen to death or were shut in beck of the head by THE VETERANS And now they celebrate it! MRSAPPER I´D LIKE TO READ YOUR POINT OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do You see only that Natzis have been done(and You can notforgive them) or You see other ugly sides of history too?
I think most allied veterans will tell you that there is a definite difference between the soldiers of the german army and the members of the SS (Nazi Party).This is not to say that the regular army was honorable at all times. But to lump them all together as "The Nazis" is incorrect.My German Grandfather was an engineer behind the lines drilling for and supplying fuel for the front when he was catured by the russians.I am sure the russians did not care whether he was a Nazi or not he was german and that is that. But my english Grandfather and his brothers defiantly made a distinction as to a Nazi(SS) and regular german army.As did my german grandfather,he use to call the time of the war "Hitlers Terror"my father still calls it that. Germans and I include myself will always carry the guilt of the Holocaust and the atrocities done in the name of the german people as a whole. But not all germans where nazis , especially not all men who fought for Germany.
Thanks for your comments Sapper. I cannot agree with you that everyone who fought for that regime was as bad as Hitlers close entourage. You're implying that all the civilians who were called up by the law of their land should have risen up and renounced their country and their history, would you have done that for yours? As a contemory of that time I can see your point as you fought against many of the worst of them, but you just cannot tar everyone with the same brush. You may have seen the horror of the Falaise Gap but I still cannot see how you can tar every axis soldier with the same brush. Well, actually you can, but I can also disagree. I know you cannot forgive, and I respect that. My grandfather was shot at Dunkirk, he chose to volunteer and gave up his job in the Tees area to go in the BEF and go out to fight with the first troops, he was shot in the shoulder by a machine gunner and had to have extensive surgery in his arm and shoulder, he never saw some of the sights you saw sapper, except in the news, he did recover after about 2 years of operations, therapy and recuperation. Alas he never spoke to me of forgiveness, I would have liked his opinion. What do you think of this: http://www.remember.org/imagine/limits/j_taylor.htm MG PS [How can others who were not apart of their generation give their opinion as to who should forgive whom? Why not, if people don't agree then why bother to post in this thread? If you believe I shouldn't have an opinion then neither should you.] ]
By all means you have a right to an opinion......we all do. I was only relating to a couple of posts that seemed to suggest they had a right to tell someone who actually fought in the war to forgive. I believe as you correctly state , we all have an opinion.Only those who were there,have a right to forgive or not ,by what they actually experienced. Thanks.........
Ok, whatever you decide is your right. I'm not posting here to change anyones mind, I never siad I was. I believe that everyone in this world has a right to their own opinion. "History is written by the victors." - Winston Churchill 1945 "Grief and tragedy and hatred are only for a time. Goodness, remembrance and love have no end." George W Bush 2001 Regards MG http://www.forgiving.org/
As a Battlefield Guide I quite often take mixed groups of British and German Vets back to North Africa. Without doubt they are always the best tours. Every year the DAK vets gather at Rommels grave for a Memorial Service not just for Rommel, but for all those that died in Afrika. There has always been British Vets present. Regards - MF
Why You people closed the- Should Russia Have Been Taken Down? That is very impontant to write truth about history! Why writings about Natzis crimes is´t political and the same writings/opinions about Kommunists is political! Sorry but I dont understand You people correctly! Why is debats about Natzsis crimes, especially how they killed little innocent children is promised and the debats about Kommunists Killers is closed very soon/fast! I truly belive in Your justice and hope that the ´´Should Russia Have Been Taken Down?´´ WILL be back!
It was closed to prevent flaming, it was closed when it was to avoid things getting heated as thing were already becoming that way. It is done now and it will not be reopened.
I believe that the question was 'should old veterans forgive their former enemies?' Surely that is entirely up to the individual concerned. Forgiveness is not something that can be forced upon an individual. Kiwiwriter summed it up more elequently than I could in a couple of posts - forgiveness is a personal matter. If sapper is unable to forgive, that is up to him. Some veterans, regardless of who they fought for, have forgiven, others not. They must take that decision to their maker. Roxy
Why You dont remove the posts just like there! Why You have to close it? I respect Your deshison there people! But it seem to me not fair!
Just a repeat of my posting in the "Fear" thread .......... I am sorry to see you leave, Sapper. I am almost as old as you and experienced much of WW2, surviving Air Raids, a V1 flying bomb attack, privation and rationing on the British Homefront. I also served in the US Military (USAF) in the Korean and Vietnam wars (no combat -- not in country). Because of that, I think I understand your motivations and feelings as you posted here. You are one of a fast disappearing and precious band of heroes. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your service to your country and the cause of freedom in the civilised world. James
