To Gage, I'm afraid I cannot say so much on the second world war. During my studies I concentrated on what happened in my region, what life was like before Hitler came to power and afterwards during the Third Reich. This kept me busy for years. So I prefer to read what you all are writing. Barbara Ok, no problem. Respect to you.
Since my mother has taken over my account and read my posts I just created a new acount . Your new name is a bit long. What can we call you for short? Sounds scandinavian.
Since my mother has taken over my account and read my posts I just created a new acount . Maybe she is either too lazy to create a new one or she is just keen on the 50 posts I have , I just dunno why she doesn't want to create a new one . Your old Tyrulf Doesn't "Dottyr" represent the feminine version of a name?
I can't even pronounce his name. Looks cool though. And i am not being facetious here. Spidge, i was actually asking a mild mannered question about Norway as i want to cover the Bergen area for a Geography of Travel and Tourism report for Uni. I'm still trying to work out how to get HMS Woolston into the report without the lecturer noticing. And come on Barbara! it would be fantastic to hear the details of a single area under Nazi rule. It's the details that make the story. And i am sure you could pull us up on a few things. Ex-Tyrulf asks if someone was in the controlled area of Germany after the war. My father was in the 1970's, and i pity all Germans for being subjected to him. I humbly apologise for anything he may have said and done whilst there. And that covers up to and including breathing. One thing, wasn't this forum about if old vertans should forgive? I think it was kinda decided that was up to the individual vets. I certainly wouldn't ask Sapper to forgive after all he went through, but i also know others who have. It's a personal choice. So if we want this argument to continue (and to be honest i am kinda enjoying it) then maybe one of the Mods can put it as a new thread? Just an idea.
[q uote=Herroberst]Barbara, Was your father a Gebirgsjaeger?[/quote]No, my father was in Cherbourg and I think on Guernsey. He was a wireless operator.
I can't even pronounce his name. Looks cool though. And i am not being facetious here. Spidge, i was actually asking a mild mannered question about Norway as i want to cover the Bergen area for a Geography of Travel and Tourism report for Uni. I'm still trying to work out how to get HMS Woolston into the report without the lecturer noticing. And come on Barbara! it would be fantastic to hear the details of a single area under Nazi rule. It's the details that make the story. And i am sure you could pull us up on a few things. Ex-Tyrulf asks if someone was in the controlled area of Germany after the war. My father was in the 1970's, and i pity all Germans for being subjected to him. I humbly apologise for anything he may have said and done whilst there. And that covers up to and including breathing. One thing, wasn't this forum about if old vertans should forgive? I think it was kinda decided that was up to the individual vets. I certainly wouldn't ask Sapper to forgive after all he went through, but i also know others who have. It's a personal choice. So if we want this argument to continue (and to be honest i am kinda enjoying it) then maybe one of the Mods can put it as a new thread? Just an idea. Well,I could certainly tell you many details. But what are you interested in most? I did research on the revolution and the postwar time 1918 to 1923, inflation, destabilization of the Weimar republic from 1928 to 1933, development of the elections in the years 1918 to 1933, the uprisal of Nationalsocialism in my area, how the Nazis stabilized their power by abolishing the other parties, their fight against catholicism, against Jehova's Wittnesses, against the Jews, against the lower classes and the mentally and bodily handicapped, developpment of the unemployed people, the time during the war, war economy,prisoners of war, forced labourer, evacuees, resettlement of Italians of German origin and of other regions in Eastern Europe, persons injured by bombs, the end of war (when the Americans and the French fought their way through the Alpenfestung), the occupation by Americans, denazification, displaced persons, and so on,all the time I studied the mood of the population... I could imagine that my approach to the topics might perhaps be different to the ones of British or other historians. So are you interested in? Barbara
Erm...thanks Barbara, but that's not quite what i need. I need the geology and countryside in relation to tourism, and how tourism is affected by the geology. I want to use it to show why cruises go into the Norwegian Fjords, as well as attracting lunatics who jump off them attached to a hanky and a bit of string (BASE jumping). But thanks for the offer, i may take you up on it at a later date. Or my mum might, as she's interested in Bergen as we're tacking down HMS Woolston's records etc, and she took the surrender of the German High Command in Northern Norway in April 1945. So you may hear from me in the future. Cheers for the offer though.
Barbara. I can see your point of view. I am certainly not embittered, far from it..Nor do I hold fanatic views on our cause. But I am, if nothing else, a realist. All the way from Sword Beach to Bremen, my friends and mates gave their lives to rid the World of the Nazi Regime. All that way they fought and died. Their graves are scattered along the way. They died for the cause of freedom. We wanted no mans country. We liberated and passed on the governance to the people of that country. To govern themselves and to practice their own religion. I took part in every battle in Normandy until I left them severely wounded at Overloon and Venraij in Limburg, Holland. Thus: I do not have the right to forgive and forget, If I do that, then the thousands that fell will surely rest uneasy in their graves. In the long run, and the not too distant future, our generation will surely pass on, then perhaps you can all do what you like. But I can never forget the blood soaked hands of the Third Reich. Sapper I respect your point of view and I feel very sorry that you lost your health. Have you been handicapped since the end of the war? When did your friend try to find out about Bergen Belsen? Was it still during the war? Barbara
Hello everyone, We must realize a historical line was crossed during WWII. The industrial revolution had provided such levels of efficiency in warfare that numbers became mind-buggling. It is for this reason that in the collective psyche Nazism became the epitome of evil: not because of their capacity for personal cruelty, but the scale at which they could excercise it. Today, anyone who suffered to oppose Nazism is remembered as a heroe. Those who suffered to support Nazism are remembered as villains. However, a Tommy serving in North Africa or Europe could easily have been posted in any of the subjugated countries of the British Empire, and committed atrocities equal to those of the German people. If we look at it in numbers, in general we can say there is a limit to how many people a single individual can hurt. A German soldier in Belarus and a British one in Amritsar, who is the crueler man? I am grateful to Sapper and his comrades whose saccrifices allow us in Europe to live in a free world. I honor you. But to take the moral high ground as an individual would require an honest answer in the negative to the following question: Would you have followed Gen. R.E.H. Dyer's orders and opened fire against 10,000 unarmed men, women, and children at Amritsar? If you might be inclined to believe you would have followed those orders like virtually any soldier of the time would have, it might be time to seriously consider forgiveness towards those enemies who did likewise. Again, I forward all WWII allied veterans my deepest heartfelt gratitude. To Axis veterans who only followed orders, my understanding and forgiveness. Greetings to all.
Good point Sertorius. However, i think i have to disagree a little. Amritsar was one of the few cases in the 20th century where we as the British Emprie continued to act like total a***holes. I don't deny it. But byWW2 we were a different nation altogether. The Nazis on the other hand prevented freedom of speech, religion, thought, looks, individuality. They prevented everything and then tried to enforce it on others as well. In Britain we were ending our empire and giving that freedom to other nations. Times change, and i do not ignore my countries past, but i also do not ignore its attempts to do its best either. I am not sure where in Europe you are, but let me tell you a little something. After D-Day, the Princes Irene brigade fought all the way to Holland to liberate it after spending several years in Britain waiting for their chance. Many of the men married English girls and wanted to take them home to Holland after the war. However,the Dutch peole despised them as cowards and traitors because they escaped to fight another day instead of staying behind to suffer under the Nazi's. i understand why they did this, but those boys fought to get home. So should the Dutch be despised in the same way as the Germans?
Greetings mosquito617 and all, In my previous post I only tried to bring the concept of forgiveness down to the level of individual choices rather than those of the collective. Therefore, I would not say the Dutch must be despised. But I would say that those Dutch individuals who branded the Princess Irene Brigade were either ignorant or stupid or worse. I was neither trying to minimize the countless barbarous acts committed by Axis forces nor exaggerate those few of the Allied nations. Neither was I trying to open a can of worms by referring to the British Empire of earlier years. I only wanted to discuss the forgiveness of individulas, even if these can collectively add up to millions, and have aided in monstruous acts. About me: I live in Eeklo, Belgium. Just five minutes from the Canadian/Polish/British War Cemetery and Canadian War Museum in Maldegem. I was born in the UK from Spanish parents. My mother's brother fought on the loyalist side in the Spanish civil war, after which he was sentenced to death by firing squad. My my father's uncle became a maquis and ended up in a German concentration camp. Amazingly both survived. The first one was lined up at the execution wall up to six times before being released on the account of having saved the life of a priest by hiding him in in our family's home in Santander. He died non-the-less a some 3 years later of a heart attack at age 33. The second one regained his freedom after the liberation of France, and lived on to become, among other things, my godfather. At home, the Union Jack, the Star-Spangled Banner, and the Maple Leaf Flag are always present and honored in gratitude to those individuals from these nations (and all others) who risked all in the defense of freedom and goodness. I, perhaps only because I have never fired a shot or been fired at (that I know of, anyhow!), can and do forgive Axis veterans who only followed orders. Those whose choice it was to commit or condone the attrocities, I despise. ----------------------------- "To do an evil act is base. To do a good one without incurring danger, is common enough. But it is the part of a good man to do great and noble deeds though he risks everything in doing them." - Plutarch
OK, I'll let you off this time. Just be careful how you phrase things in future, because i am liable to go off like a Claymore at certain points. As to being shot at, i don't recommend it. It's not nice.
Welcome Sertorius, It is good to see you are a student of Ancient History. Did you select Sertorius for his gallantry in battle and his dislike of retaliation by others towards a beaten foe? Living in Flanders you may be tired of this poem however I think it is quite poignant and very moving. IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow Between the crosses row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields. ----------------------------- "To do an evil act is base. To do a good one without incurring danger, is common enough. But it is the part of a good man to do great and noble deeds though he risks everything in doing them." - Plutarch[/quote]
I wrote this for all the young men that fell....It has been read at remembrance services. Sapper Les Fleurs de Normandie. On Norman soil, they fought and died. Now young men's graves in rows abound. In Mother Earth's arms, now sanctified, The fragrant flowers of our youth are found. And yet, to rise again, as in a distant song. Small voices that call, in dead of night. Fleeting figures only in our dreams belong. Alas, they fade, in dawn's bright light. I see them yet, a sad, forgotten throng. Shadowed, lost faces, marching on. Over dusty roads, and high golden corn. The call of long lost friends are borne. We must not forget, the flowers of our days, Lest they lay unquiet, in numbered graves. For we lived, and loved, and life was sweet. Still yet, for us, awaits our last retreat. Flowers of our youth, now long since past. Our sweet autumn days are fading fast. We, who are left, flowered in our prime. Enjoyed golden moments, on borrowed time. Remember our friends, who passed this way. For all our tomorrow's, they gave their today's, On Utah and Omaha, Juno, Sword and Gold. Oh! Dear Lord! See that they grow not old.
Written by Miss Moina Michael. I'm afriad it is abit melodramatic. "The Victory Emblem" Oh! You who sleep in Flanders' fields, Sleep sweet - to rise anew; We caught the torch you threw, And holding high we kept The faith with those who died. We cherish too, the poppy red That grows on the fields where valour led, It seems to signal to the skies That blood of heroes never dies, But lends a lustre to the red Of flowers that bloom above the dead In Flanders' fields. And now the torch and poppy red Wear in honour of our dead. Fear not that ye have died for nought; We've learned the lessons that ye taught In Flanders' fields. This was written in the 1920's, and unfortunately the last stanza didn't hold true. Personally, when looking at the second world war, i prefer to read High Flight or Let Them In Peter. Kitty
