The act of insisting on apology is more the weapon being wielded in NI. To the benifit of very few. Well, that's where one finds out how effective a weapon it is - if by insisting on an apology(s), their bluff is called and one is forthcoming, would the parties involved move forward in the peace process?
That's the problem though, 'apology' is being used to throw a spanner in the political works. Have a feeling the South africans got this right, the truth and reconciliation business dragged all the bad blood into the open and fully acknowledged what happened, meaningful apologies were/are expected from actual individual perpetrators but are not used to continue division between factions. "lets move on" seems to be the motto and it seems to be working.
That's the problem though, 'apology' is being used to throw a spanner in the political works. Have a feeling the South africans got this right, the truth and reconciliation business dragged all the bad blood into the open and fully acknowledged what happened, meaningful apologies were/are expected from actual individual perpetrators but are not used to continue division between factions. "lets move on" seems to be the motto and it seems to be working. Ahh, VP, if only it was so simple: "A 1998 study by South Africa's Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation & the Khulumani Support Group[1], which surveyed several hundred victims of human rights abuse during the Apartheid era, found that most felt the TRC had failed to achieve reconciliation between the black and white communities. Most felt that justice was a prerequisite for reconciliation rather than an alternative to it, and that the TRC had been weighted in favour of the perpetrators of abuse." Truth and Reconciliation Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Survivors' Perceptions of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and Suggestions for the Final Report - CSVR & Khulumani
Ahh, VP, if only it was so simple: "A 1998 study by South Africa's Centre for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation & the Khulumani Support Group[1], which surveyed several hundred victims of human rights abuse during the Apartheid era, found that most felt the TRC had failed to achieve reconciliation between the black and white communities. Most felt that justice was a prerequisite for reconciliation rather than an alternative to it, and that the TRC had been weighted in favour of the perpetrators of abuse." Truth and Reconciliation Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Survivors' Perceptions of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and Suggestions for the Final Report - CSVR & Khulumani but it's successfully avoided (so far) the whole country descending into open bloodshed, regardless of how individuals feel about the outcome the ship of state continues to sail. A remarkable achievement considering the years of hatred.
but it's successfully avoided (so far) the whole country descending into open bloodshed, regardless of how individuals feel about the outcome the ship of state continues to sail. A remarkable achievement considering the years of hatred. ...........by the fact that the majority of the whites are isolated in their compunds that make Fort Knox look like a National Trust open day, and allowing the poor to continue killing each other in the townships. The oligarchy may have changed colour, but nothing else has changed.
...........by the fact that the majority of the whites are isolated in their compunds that make Fort Knox look like a National Trust open day, and allowing the poor to continue killing each other in the townships. The oligarchy may have changed colour, but nothing else has changed. but there's no open warfare. And that's something of a plus point if expanded into international relationships. The haves and have nots is a different matter to apologies, or not, between nations.
but there's no open warfare. And that's something of a plus point if expanded into international relationships. The haves and have nots is a different matter to apologies, or not, between nations. I'm one for waiting and seeing. Once Mandela dies, things could degenerate rapidly. For all his faults, he has been a morally unifying force, and more importantly, he's being alive has kept the world's attention focussed on SA. Without that focus moves on (which it inevitably will), it could descend into a Zimbabwe.
Read all this now I have calmed down (please forgive my rant, it was a bad day) I think acknowledgement of past wrongs must come first. Japan is a cas einpoint, They must recognise and learn of the atrocities commited by their people in the War, but should they apologise? Difficult to say. They refuse now because they are ignorant of what they need to apologise for. Once they learn, then maybe they'll feel an apology is in order.
In this context, I can only see that an apology is relevant if it comes from a land or institution which was either responsible for or is substantially the same as that which carried out the acts in question. I think Rich has summed this up best so far. The apology question appears to revolve around the temporal; I find it easy to say that the slave apology is ridiculous but there's more ambiguity on Germany/Japan etc. 'Living memory' applies here but who's living memory? the apologiser, or the apologised to? Is there a cut-off point, and would it be relevant in Germany's case anyway where the regime was disbanded and tried almost immediately? The most meaningul apology/remorse would have to have come from Hitler himself (and other individuals), and if he had survived I can't see that apology ever coming, and what real difference would it make to the dead anyway. Imagine that as a political issue, trying to 'move on' in terms of international politics if an apology was forever being insisted upon from an imprisoned Fuhrer... Great Britain has been at war with many (most) of her current allies and trading partners at some point. Should we apologise for times when our behaviour is perceived as unjust by one party or other? There really does come a time when you've just got to 'get on with it.'
They must recognise and learn of the atrocities commited by their people in the War, but should they apologise? Difficult to say. They refuse now because they are ignorant of what they need to apologise for. Once they learn, then maybe they'll feel an apology is in order. The fact that the Powers in Japan refuse to acknowledge, and refuse to let the general population be educated on the subject only make them more culpable. As I said earlier, the President of my contry on a visit to Israel presented his apology for the persecution to Jews and for the Inquisition. Evidently modern Portugal has nothing at all to do with those events and the Inquisition was dissolved 180 years ago, but nevertheless apologies were made and were generally felt here as a noble and necessary gesture, a cleansing of a blot in the national character.
An excellent book : The Slave Trade, the history of the Atlantic slave trade 1440-1870 by Hugh Thomas published in 1997. ISBN: 0 333 73147 6. Rather heavy going though! The trouble with an apology is that it leaves one open to demands for compensation in one way or another.
Germans should NEVER apologise for Germany. 1. They can never be responsible for the actions of their country in WW2, as they were individuals - are you respondsible for the USA (also almost all are now born after WW2); 2. Even those who were in WW2, were by and large (almoat all were concsripts) ordinary people caught in a regime (they were subject to propoganda and did not know what they fought for) for the actions of the Nazi regime; 3. It is absolutely absurd, why should I feel guilt free because I was born in an allied country (eg the A Bomb) - conversely why should a german feel any respondsibility for WW2. Germans are good and decent people, they should be left alone to move on. To suggest anything else is idiotic. Thanks, Aaron
Germans should NEVER apologise for Germany. 1. They can never be responsible for the actions of their country in WW2, as they were individuals - are you respondsible for the USA (also almost all are now born after WW2); 2. Even those who were in WW2, were by and large (almoat all were concsripts) ordinary people caught in a regime (they were subject to propoganda and did not know what they fought for) for the actions of the Nazi regime; 3. It is absolutely absurd, why should I feel guilt free because I was born in an allied country (eg the A Bomb) - conversely why should a german feel any respondsibility for WW2. Germans are good and decent people, they should be left alone to move on. To suggest anything else is idiotic. Thanks, Aaron Great post Aaron my admirs you write exactly what i was going to write. PS:The man who must apologise is dead befor long time.
Germany has openly acknowledged its part in WW2 and is open on the catastrophic effects this war had on the inhabitants of this earth. Their children are well aware of Hitler's rise and fall and are innocent of any blame for what their political leaders carried out. Japan on the other hand, contemptuously refuses to inform their inhabitants of their animalistic treatment of innocent men, women, children and prisoners of war in their drive through Asia and the Pacific. Japanese children likewise have nothing to answer however they have a right to be educated on their countries involvement.
I agree with parts of people's comments but I think some are confusing apology and aknowledgement of past deeds, with guilt. I don't think many people, including victims would want innocent people to feel guilty (even though this may be a by-product of acknowledging the deed of peoples fathers, grandfathers etc) about their countries past. Another point I have issue with is this insistence that time (the temporal!) is fundamental point as whether an apology is due. If take the slave issue as an example, why shouldn't the issue be brought to the fore? Are we really taking issue with that, or are actually reacting this way because of who made the comments. Dammit - I'm trying to make this coherent but I've got the Pink Floyd concert playing on the tellie at full blast !!!! p.s. ourbill, I agree, it's a great book
:sign_what:Apologize, Who would for what? Following generations are never responsible for their predecessors. Seems like some Ambulance chaser trying to make a buck. Germany was defeated in WWII, Fire bombed into the stone age, Gulaged up the wazzoo, many hung or were shot(werewolves). The country was partitioned and subjugated by the Russians. I think the German people deserve a break.:indexCAXI2NHN: I think we need a rest from this brain dead, Leftist, guilty white, Politically (wrong) movement:nospeakhearsee: :GroupHug: that seems to be infesting the minds of too many these days. How about focusing on Space travel, Atomic fusion, Hydrogen fuel cells and of course women? :exactly:
:sign_what:Apologize, Who would for what? Following generations are never responsible for their predecessors. Seems like some Ambulance chaser trying to make a buck. Germany was defeated in WWII, Fire bombed into the stone age, Gulaged up the wazzoo, many hung or were shot(werewolves). The country was partitioned and subjugated by the Russians. I think the German people deserve a break.:indexCAXI2NHN: I think we need a rest from this brain dead, Leftist, guilty white, Politically (wrong) movement:nospeakhearsee: :GroupHug: that seems to be infesting the minds of too many these days. How about focusing on Space travel, Atomic fusion, Hydrogen fuel cells and of course women? :exactly: Hi Pete.
I think we need a rest from this brain dead, Leftist, guilty white, Politically (wrong) movement Well, I'm not white, certainly not brain dead, don't have European roots so don't feel guilty, but yes I am politically correct (and if by movement you mean the people who fought racism, disablism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, etc, then I'm proud to be alligned with them)
Well, I'm not white, certainly not brain dead, don't have European roots so don't feel guilty, but yes I am politically correct (and if by movement you mean the people who fought racism, disablism, sexism, ageism, homophobia, etc, then I'm proud to be alligned with them) Ah I knew it, A secular progressive:nospeakhearsee: , concerned with isms. :Hydrogen: Save the world as long as it doesn't cost me anything Oh, Hi Geoff, Have a Great Holiday season.
Germans should NEVER apologise for Germany. Donnerwetter! We are not apologizing and anyone who sez we should will get an apology up his @ss! We apologize for nothing and we're ready and more than ready to do it all over again, this time on a bigger scale! :m11: Is that it? Germans are good and decent people, they should be left alone to move on. That's exactly why they did apologize. I think we need a rest from this brain dead, Leftist, guilty white, Politically (wrong) movement:nospeakhearsee: :GroupHug: that seems to be infesting the minds of too many these days. Brother, if you mean to include me in the aforesaid lot then you'd better look again :icon_fork:
