Sherman DD help.

I am afraid I have nothing to add of substance - I had the pleasure of interviewing members of the Creully Club some years ago and followed this up with informal questions to other surviving veterans including officers.

I asked about individual tank identification markings. Other than 'we had a big number in white on the turret', details were not recalled. I fished around for the start number, who had it and where the sequence went around the regiment however there was no recollection.

Similarly the subtle details of the Shermans was unclear - there were memories that some had the loaders hatch and some didn't and that a few had larger driver's hatches. It has to be understood that these guys were working their way through memories of all their Shermans from training right through to demob, and any individual would experience several. I discovered they had very little knowledge of variants from the names/technical specs. however asking their opinion on details such as spark plugs soon identified that they had most experience of both the Wright/Continental radial and Chrysler Multibank - and much prefered the former as the plugs were accessible, despite it "pissing oil everywhere". The best I could get was that the squadrons with DDs had M4A1

My favourite positive response was (and I make no apology for repeating it) in answer to asking about the Browning M2 .50in mg and its use in Normandy - "Had one of those. Got in the way. Sold it to some Canadians".

Good luck.

 

I think the previous post highlights an important point about recollections after those momentous events: as far as the guys were concerned, these tanks were simply their steeds at the time....the equivalent, if you like, of the Company Car or Van etc..... Can you remember the registration number, precise details of the model plus modifications etc etc of your company van that you drove 40-50-60 years ago?.....I doubt it, and it doesn't matter anyway.

Exceptions prove the rule and my own father remembered the census number of his 24th Lancers Sherman tank at the time of the Normandy landings T152248......but he couldn't remember anything else by way of name etc and even he conflated some of the details from his later time with 3RTR as he described it as having 11th Armoured Division markings (Black Bull etc) rather than the correct 8th Armoured Brigade markings. He did know a lot about his 3RTR Comet T335335 named Celerity but that is only because he came back from the War with some rather splendid photos of that vehicle. I've managed to confirm/validate a lot of these details over the years but it has taken a horrendous amount of time even though I've known what I've been looking for.

 

Agreed! (Half the time it doesn't matter anyway! ) - sometimes it's just general interest, occasionally there's a bit more than that :P

It can help specifically to know sometimes why people want to know, as it might colour any response as to what level of detail of reply they are after there. It might be in order to make an authentic model or verify the history of a newly discovered tank wreck. I guess the possibilities are endless. With vehicle pools as well being on hand there might have been quite a lot of swapping out and mix and match. I've seen some accounts re. the same tank name being on a number of different tanks - or just regularly re-used, as well as some specific tanks going on to other "careers" post WW2, sometimes with major modifications entailed, that have largely now disquised their original WW2 use.

My own Gd’s tank was I guess one of the old ex-24th Lancers regular Sherman's that joined B-squadron SRY around the 1st-4th August 1944. So he would have been in the old SRY "DD" B-squadron, in one of 2 new to the SRY troops, led by either ex 24th L's Lieutenant Cameron or Cowan. The Lancer tanks were not DD’s but would have been replacing losses, perhaps (if the SRY DD’s were not “swapped out”) of SRY ones that were.

Re. the SRY C squadrons "crossing" Noireau - 16th August 1944, "C Sqn moved across the NOIREAU at first light carrying 5 D.C.L.I. on the backs of our tanks." - this sounded a bit like a DD crossing to me but the entry for the day before on the 15th: "The bridge over the NOIREAU to the East of CONDE has been blown by the retreating enemy and plans are made for a crossing over the river at 2 points, 4 to 5 miles North of CONDE, which is still in enemy hands. The bridging is to be done by Inf" - suggests it was not by DD - I don't think I've seen the DD's mentioned again after D-day in association with the SRY.

But SRY losses of tanks in battles were very high so I suspect that there's a chance that a number of wrecks with those serial numbers: 3016778, 3038018, 3061494, 3069973,3070077,3070151,3070165 ("Bardin Collos"),
3070255,3070281,3070294,3070364,3070371,3070398, 3070410, 3070458,3070473,3070488,3070492,3070827

Could now be littered across Normandy? Unless they were recycled into other regiments/units for later use elsewhere. I guess any of those numbers on a discovered wrecked tank (or in the original makers docs) might re-verify the original tank's model and make - or reiterate that it was one that the SRY once used. But I'm not sure (beyond just general interest!) why that matters anyway.

Allied WWII AFV Discussion Group: Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry

Is asking for a bit more info. but it is a rather old post.

Re. you're last bit in there though Steve:

"Kevin

What's your source for the information about Armageddon and Pin Up girl (both ex 24th Lancers)?"

- I think this is mentioned in brief detail at the end of the Cropper book "Dad's War" about an ex24th Lancers that also went to the SRY.

All the best,

Rm.

 

Rm

Kevin never replied to that final post. Most likely he covered it elsewhere as he is very thorough. Having said that, there is, in my mind, a major problem with missing-Lynx in that new posts on a thread do not move that thread to the top of the list, in other words there is no equivalent to this excellent (WW2Talk) Forums 'New Content' tab.

Incidentally, when transferring between Regiments, you didn't take your tank with you. This was because different Regiments had different tank types etc although, in the case of a transfer from 24L to SRY, and because this was also to 8AB, there could have been an exception in the case.

Also incidentally, Cameron's son has been in historic contact with me re 24L.

Apologies to other readers of this thread for digressing from the topic of DD tanks.

 

As far as I know, for D Day:
- Sherman IIDD went exclusively (not "predominantly") to 4/7 DG and NOTTS YEO.
- [Edit: Most] photos of British Sherman IIDD show only (when the type is identifiable) the small hatch version [B 8588 shows a large hatch version tank of NOTTS YEO - see 2 posts down]
- The US used exclusively M4A1, and photos or other evidence show they were of both types (small & large hatch versions, the latter therefore with high bustle turret, pistol port & loader's hatch).
- All other DD were Sherman V.
I'm afraid any further conclusion would be pure speculation, but I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.

Michel

 

(From this thread: The SRY in NWE in August 1944 and reply etc.)

Looking at some IWM links for the SRY in August 1944...

Found this: The Armoured Campaign in Normandy, June-August, 1944

Which suggests that this IWM picture:
THE BRITISH ARMY IN NORMANDY 1944 (B 8588)
Sherman DD tanks move along a narrow lane towards Ondefontaine, 4 August 1944.

Might perhaps be an SRY DD tank....

There is also some discussion here on the same picture:
Pressed Steel Car M4A1s

"The British received 80 of the US converted M4A1 DDs, all of which were allocated to the 8th Armoured Brigade for the Invasion. Photos indicate that some of them were the large hatch models. Above shows an example in action with the Sherwood Rangers, the junior Regiment of the 8th AB. The unit was photographed on August 4, 1944 advancing towards Ondefontaine, France on a farm lane in the hedgerow country typical of Normandy. The "SCR 528" stenciled on the turret stands for "Signal Corps Radio Model 528," the standard tank radio used by the US at the time. For some reason, the British did not overpaint this along with the USA Registration Number when they applied the circle tactical marking indicative of C Squadron. Perhaps they used the SCR 528 in lieu of the British #19 on the DDs received from the US? Because the M4A1 DDs transferred to the British in the UK were not originally intended for Lend Lease, they did not have British WD Numbers assigned beforehand. A May 24, 1944 Roster of the Nottinghamshire Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry lists the USA Numbers of some of their DDs, and several are in the large hatch range, such as USA 3070473, 3070488 and 3070492. Photo courtesy of the Imperial War Museum"

 

As per the caption at the end of Ramiles' previous post, B 8588 does show a NOTTS YEO Sherman II DD (large hatch version). The only other British/Commonwealth DD regiments equipped with Sherman II tanks, 4/7 DG, used large numbers on the turret, and not the Squadron tac sign as seen here.

I've edited my post #25 above to reflect that.

 

I was looking too at what was on the tank commanders head (non standard kit?) - as well as "trying" to figure out where the camera man was "standing". Perfect Bocage - I had sort of half speculated (to myself) that the SRY might have been considering using their remaining DD's (i.e. whatever they still had left) for later river crossings - but by the looks of it maybe not.

I'll have to re-read a few notes, but from what I recall the crews were "encouraged" to try to keep their DD's in a usable state i.e. and not just strip everything off... but I assume once you have driven through a few hedges etc....

Rm.

 

On DD-tanks of the Staffordshire Yeomanry in the Rhine Crossing, see: RHINE CROSSING 1945: The Rees bridgehead (51st Highland Div in operation 'Turnscrew')

 

From 79 Armd Div Operational Bulletin No.1 of 19 Jun 44
Part Two - D.D. Tanks
Section B - Technical
--------------------------------------------------------------------
3....Jettisoning of DD Equipment

.....Although DD equipment does not interfere with the fighting
of the tank, (except to a small extent with the hull Browning)
it must be accepted that after it has been in action, the DD
equipment cannot be used again.

.....It gets shot up, torn, rails broken, etc....Moreover,in
negotiating narrow lanes, turning corners, etc. it gets broken.

.....It is, in fact, cut off and jettisoned by crews as opportunity
offers. ..There is much evidence of this from a mile or two in
from the beaches up to five or six miles inland.

.....It might be possible to salvage propellers, but little else.
It must, therefore, be accepted that new DD equipment will be
necessary for each operation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Michel