Service Record deciphering question.

Discussion in 'Service Records' started by zola1, Oct 16, 2018.

  1. zola1

    zola1 Member

    Hi

    Can anyone you help with :-

    Ref my late fathers service record ... on the 26th Nov 43 ..on that line that it mentions “posted 2.PDBR for draft serial RG2GY authority to RE Reds. A/45//736


    Any thoughts on the deciphering of that line?

    I am currently trying to locate which troopship he left Liverpool on the 12th Dec 43 .. the reason I’m going back to that posting for is I’m thinking if I can get some WD information on his previous unit 810 Construction Coy there might be some more details..on the ship?


    Also I’ve looked at this database
    Here are some ships to the Clyde on the 12th Dec 43 ... but after I get confirmation the R.E were on either of those ships to the Clyde then I need to go further on the dates and piece together the onward journeys to NA then to Italy ..

    Arnold Hague Ports database

    I’ve jumped ahead with a possible troopship from Egypt to Naples early in Feb 44, but having done a bit of rethinking .. I feel I need to get the departure from Liverpool to NA confirmed first.http://ww2talk.com/index.php?attachments/6ef8587a-6b5e-42b8-bb82-99189683c736-jpeg.230232/

    Any thoughts on this ?


    With kindest regards
    Derrick
     

    Attached Files:

  2. idler

    idler GeneralList

    RG2GY is simply a code/serial for a draft going overseas.
    PDBR should read PDBRE, though it might be POBRE, the RE is self explanatory in either case. The only idea so far is 'Port Operating' but it's not a great idea as the units were Companies and Groups, not Battalions or Brigades.
     
  3. zola1

    zola1 Member

    1DD72BBE-43E2-480C-A3CF-BC3D6BBA8B21.jpeg 3A13B232-A931-4249-AE64-480E4E4ECFEF.jpeg 294BC878-A9F3-4AEA-9463-5D1B93148787.png 1DD72BBE-43E2-480C-A3CF-BC3D6BBA8B21.jpeg 294BC878-A9F3-4AEA-9463-5D1B93148787.png Hi idler,

    Many thanks for your reply,

    I’ve looked at various online acronym lists but there was nothing definitive, could be what you suggest ..Port Authority... the letters and numbers at the end must mean some sort of regulation ( Reds might be a typo for Regs) ? More questions on that deceipher .. might be a clue to the bigger Platoon they belonged to ?


    So as they were a small group of men (9 OR) 294BC878-A9F3-4AEA-9463-5D1B93148787.png in the 364 wrk sec .. would it be a case of them being part of an larger Platoon as per this hierarchy? . I’ve looked through the WD’s for early 44,&? , there is no mention of the Platoon or the much larger Field Company!
    The reason I was researching that, was then I could look for confirmation of the exact ship ... once I had the name of the further Platoons & Field Company.
    I’ve found 4 ships on the database but need more clues on the Bigger body of men they were in, to possibly narrow the search down to find the specific ship.


    Derrick
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  4. sjw8

    sjw8 Active Member

    Deleted - duplicate
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
  5. sjw8

    sjw8 Active Member

    Derrick
    a. 2 (P) DBRE - 2 (? Provisional) Depot Battalion RE - a holding unit for soldiers between postings e.g. in your father's case when in transit between 810 Road Construction Company and embarking for North Africa. (A search of the forum shows a couple of similar queries.)
    b. War Diaries at the National Archives are not always filed by the unit's full title. The following Diaries appear to be relevant -
    - 810 Coy - Home Forces series - WO 166/12259 - 1943 Jan.-Dec.
    - Works Sections: 364 Sec - Central Mediteranean Forces (CMF) series - WO 170/1578 - 1944 Jan.- Dec.
    - Works Sections: 364 Sec - CMF series - WO 170/5523 - 1945 Jan.- Dec.
    - Works Sections: 364 Sec - CMF series - WO 170/8265 - 1946 Jan.- June

    Normally sub sections rarely have separate War Diaries, so the fact that 364 Works Section has separate War Diaries would suggest that they may have come under direct command of a higher formation (e.g. Division / Corps etc.).

    Hope this helps in your research
    Steve W
     
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  6. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Probably add to confusion but where do you get Naples from? Do you have other info? I would read NA or N.A. as North Africa or North America. There is an entry at 12/12/43 which looks like 'Posting to Halifax'.
    Does anyone know what GATD and R2TD (NA) stand for?

    Tim
     
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  7. sjw8

    sjw8 Active Member

    I'd agree that in this context N.A. = North Africa.
    Note - Halifax refers to West Yorkshire - the location of 2 (Postings) Depot Battalion RE (2 PDBRE) - correction to my earlier post.

    GATD = G.R.T.D. - General Re-inforcement & Training Depot
    R2TD (NA) = R.E.T.D. (NA) - Royal Engineers Training Depot (North Africa)

    Steve W

    Edited for clarification
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  8. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    In hindsight I think GATD and R2TD may merely be Draft Codes.

    Tim
     
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  9. idler

    idler GeneralList

    Good calls. Could make out the 'postings' but not smart enough to make something from it!
     
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  10. zola1

    zola1 Member

    Hi Guys,

    I lost internet coverage so I’ve enclosed a photo reply .

    Will add some more later

    Thanks

    Derrick
     

    Attached Files:

  11. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran Patron

    Derrick

    Don't know if it will help at all, but I was posted to North Africa in April 1943, my Draft Title was REAYK and this link will take you to my Photo Gallery where ALL my records are kept:
    Ron's Army Records | WW2Talk

    Good luck in your research

    Ron
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
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  12. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

  13. zola1

    zola1 Member

    Hi Ron,

    Many thanks for your reply, your service record looks full of Army speak , just like my Dads. .
    Dad arrived in North Africa Christmas Day 1943 & I’m not sure exactly how long he was there for, before he departed for Italy.
    I shall be reading up on your records.. they look very interesting & extensive.
    Kindest regards

    Derrick
     
  14. sjw8

    sjw8 Active Member

    Hi Derrick
    it is sometimes difficult to ascertain which higher formations units were attached - they could be moved around at will!

    Re 364 Works Section, if you get the War Diaries then these should indicate to whom the Section reported or came under for Operational / Admin etc. purposes as there should be entries indicating these e.g. you would be looking for Diary entries such as the unit's OC reporting to xxx Brigade / yyy Division / zzz Corps HQ or such like. Also the cover of the War Diary may provide clues.

    These two examples are from one of my dad's War Diaries -
    The cover shows the following notation -
    "Coy attached 66 Div until 25 June 1940"
    The entry for 18/09/40 states -
    "This Unit ceased to be attached to 59th Div. w.e.f. 18.9.40."

    Steve W
     
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  15. zola1

    zola1 Member

    84B90358-0DB3-4867-8BBB-49A26A2EED53.jpeg Hi Steve,

    I’ve got some of the 364 Works Section for 1944. Here is an example of a front page 1st March-31st March ( no mention of any higher units on that page)...dad was posted into the section..on the 13th March 44,This is where it gets interesting as on that date it shows the 364 Works Section were in Avellino Italy...
    Now this is the time period that I need to clear a few unanswered q’s .... As his record only show “Field” and Disembarked NA.Christmas Day 43.So it’s a mission I’m on to piece together him leaving North Africa sometime between Christmas Day and then arriving in Italy to become part of the Section in March in Avellino .. so ..
    Q1. Did he leave NA as a Driver in limbo between postings ? Then travel with the another R.E body of men...to Italy & then get transport to Avellino to join up with his new posting .

    Q2. This is where I am currently researching the troopship question. Hoping that it will answer some of the queries as to his whereabouts and dates of?.

    Or...If I look at January to March’s WD’s for the 364 Works Section ( I don’t have copies) ... then that should indicate where they were & more importantly if they were in NA and when they embarked to Italy?

    Hope that sounds right ?

    Derrick
     

    Attached Files:

  16. sjw8

    sjw8 Active Member

    Hi Derrick
    From what I can see from the extract you attached to your original post, he arrives in theatre (a.k.a Field) on Xmas Day 43 and is Taken on Strength as an unposted (x4 list) reinforcement. The next entry is some 2 months later when he is posted (ex-x4 list) to 364 Works Section on 01/03/44. As his trade is Driver, it looks like he was employed within 1 G.R.T.D. / 1 R.E.T.D. until he was required on the front line to fill a vacancy (possibly due to a Battle Casualty) and thus posted to 364 Wks Section.
    Re the unit under whom 364 were under command, I note that there is a entry mentioning 94 Sub Area; I suspect (not definite) that 364 were involved in reconstruction works in liberated areas (again I have based this on my dad's War Diaries where his unit - a RE Field Company - transferred initial remedial work to Works Sections to complete and to control locally employed workforce). Does the Diary have any appendices which could indicate operations in which 364 was involved?
    Steve
     
  17. hutt

    hutt Member

    Although I don't think it will give you the answers you want, there is a diary for No 1 GRTD between July and December 43 at Kew but frustratingly, either December is missing or because its well after my Father was there I omitted to copy it. WO169-13713. Anyway, I've attached a couple of sample pages as you might find the sorts of entries informative as to what was going on in the camp and interestingly, there is also an entry recording arriving convoys. You may also spot entries recording men going forward as reinforcements and if a diary exists for early 44, you may just be able to relate this to your man. I posted a question a few months ago for any clues as to how my Father had traveled from this camp to a unit either in Sicily or perhaps Italy but sadly any suggestions now after all these years and in the absence of a note or diary was likely to be pure speculation. DSC00022.JPG DSC00023.JPG DSC00022.JPG DSC00023.JPG DSC00024.JPG DSC00025.JPG DSC00026.JPG DSC07441.JPG DSC07442.JPG DSC07443.JPG DSC07477.JPG DSC00022.JPG DSC00023.JPG DSC00024.JPG DSC00025.JPG DSC00026.JPG DSC07441.JPG DSC07442.JPG DSC07442.JPG DSC07443.JPG DSC07477.JPG
     
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  18. zola1

    zola1 Member

    That makes sense as a lot of the details in the diaries are of road/bridge repairs and general groundworks etc ..locals involved etc...here is the page for March 1st 44...i can see various other R.E. units.....Its a scan from a photo i took on a visit to Kew, (not a brilliant Camera,,but readable with care !).
    664 A.W Coy R.E Map Ref 485609 Italy 1;1,000.000 Sheet 185

    I could do some research into any number of the Units WD's to possibly see if they arrived in Italy on the same date .....my thinking behind that is as Dad would have been on a Troopship with say 1000 men it would have made sense for a whole regiment of R.E to be sent as complete body of engineers /trucks /equipment etc..to strengthen the existing resources early 44 ./

    I've got lots of reading to go through and could post a few months of WD's for the 364 guys...lots of drawings of bridges, map references..many mentions of different units with them ..with various groups of troops from 10's through to a couple of hundred.

    Derrick
     

    Attached Files:

  19. zola1

    zola1 Member

    Hi Hutt,

    Many thanks for posting the WD's ..i will have a read through them to see if there is any info for my quest...the December WD would be most helpful. As you have kindly posted the Kew ref, i 'll contact Drew to see if when he next down there if he could take a look to see if its there and possibly photo some entries around Christmas 43.

    regards

    Derrick
     
  20. hutt

    hutt Member

    I've just run a couple of searches through the Discovery Engine at Kew and its come up with another diary for the 1st General reinforcement and training depot for 1st March to 30th June 44. WO170/3835 so even if December 43 is missing you might just have something for that crucial last day. There are also some individual Battalion diaries for units in the Depot as well but other than photographing a diary cover for 6 Bn for May 44, haven't ever got around to investigating them beyond that.
     
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