Sergeant Piedot and Pinkard (76 Squadron)

Discussion in 'The War In The Air' started by Pieter F, Dec 1, 2013.

  1. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    During the night of 21/22 January 1944 Halifax LK912 (76 Squadron) crashed near the German village of Hordorf while on ops to Magdeburg. The whole crew of seven was killed in the crash and is buried in the Berlin 1939-1945 War Cemetery. Two members of this crew were Sergeants Victor Wilfred Piedot and Donald Ernest Pinkard. Their CWGC details are at the bottom of this post.

    A genealogy website suggests both men were born in Germany. I know there were more men from Germany who served with the Allied forces, but I don't know other examples of two Germans in the same bomber crew.

    Who has got more information on these men or do know how to get more information on these two Sergeants from Halifax LK912?

    PIEDOT, VICTOR WILFRED
    Rank:Flight Sergeant
    Trade:Nav.
    Service No:1559966
    Date of Death:21/01/1944
    Age:30
    Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 76 Sqdn.
    Grave Reference9. A. 8.
    Cemetery: BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Arthur Samuel and Rosa Piedot; husband of Yvonne Piedot, of Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire. A.C.I.S.

    PINKARD, DONALD ERNEST
    Rank:Sergeant
    Trade:Air Gnr.
    Service No:1307767
    Date of Death:21/01/1944
    Age:22
    Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 76 Sqdn.
    Grave ReferenceColl. grave 9. A. 11-14.
    Cemetery: BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Ernest Albert Pinkard and Carrie Florence Pinkard.
     
  2. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    Pieter,
    Which geneology site suggests that they were born in Germany, as i have Piedot as born Edmonton, Middlesex 1913, and Pinkard born Salisbury Wiltshire, 1921.
     

    Attached Files:

    ritsonvaljos likes this.
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    On Forces War Records there are 2 ref's to a V W Piedot, date of death 21 1 1944


    First Name:

    V W

    Surname:

    Piedot

    Nationality:

    British

    Fate:

    Killed

    Incident Details:

    Crashed at Hordorf

    Incident Date:

    21-22/01/1944

    Incident Time:

    2008

    Rank:

    Sergeant

    Duty Location:

    Magdeburg
    and also

    First Name:

    Victor Wilfred

    Initials:

    V W

    Surname:

    Piedot

    DOB:

    Circa 1914

    Age:

    30

    Nationality:

    British

    Date of Death:

    21/01/1944

    Information:

    SON OF ARTHUR SAMUEL AND ROSA PIEDOT; HUSBAND OF YVONNE PIEDOT, OF HEMEL HEMPSTEAD, HERTFORDSHIRE. A.C.I.S.

    Rank:

    Flight Sergeant

    Service Number:

    1559966
    The info in the second ref ties in with the parental details on the CWGC site
     
  4. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Again for Donald Ernest Pinkard (76 Squadron) there are 2 ref's for him:


    First Name:

    D E

    Surname:

    Pinkard

    Nationality:

    British

    Fate:

    Killed

    Incident Details:

    Crashed at Hordorf

    Incident Date:

    21-22/01/1944

    Incident Time:

    2008

    Rank:

    Sergeant

    Duty Location:

    Magdeburg


    and


    First Name:

    Donald Ernest

    Initials:

    D E

    Surname:

    Pinkard

    DOB:

    Circa 1922

    Age:

    22

    Nationality:

    British

    Date of Death:

    21/01/1944

    Information:

    SON OF ERNEST ALBERT PINKARD AND CARRIE FLORENCE PINKARD.

    Rank:

    Sergeant

    Service Number:

    1307767


    Both the above 2 posts show their nationality as 'British'
     
  5. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    I will have a look again. I found that website a few weeks ago and only wrote down that it suggested that they were German.
     
  6. RAFCommands

    RAFCommands Senior Member

    Yet another example of cobbled together rubbish from Forces War Records.

    They state the incident was at 2008 which was the take off time at Spalding Moor not the time of crash.

    No checking on their part of their cut and paste but happy to sell this "snake oil" for money.

    Imperial registers give no time of death so it is not from that source.

    Ross
     
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  7. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

  8. AlanW

    AlanW Senior Member

    Just wondering if the site should read "place of death" and not birth.
     
  9. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    No idea, could be, but it also includes their year of birth, which would make it even more confusing then.
     
  10. ritsonvaljos

    ritsonvaljos Senior Member

    Sometimes the 'information' found on websites can be erroneous, especially if the primary source of that information is not quoted. As I remember, one of the websites being quoted as a source of information in this thread may not have had the best of relationships with WW2 Talk in the past.

    In this instance, one can regard the images posted by AlanW (post #2) as a primary source of information. This indicates the two airmen concerned were born in the U.K. However, could it be that one or both the airmen had some German ancestry?
     
  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Pieter,

    Something is odd here, I have been tracing the family via Ancestry, and the oddball bits here are:

    1. Arthur Samuel Piedot and Rosa Amelia F Piedot (nee Edwards) were married in Steyning, Sussex 1902, and he died in Horsham Sussex in 1953, there is no mention in his history of Hemel Hempstead. They are in the electoral registers for Wood Green but I believe that to be south London.

    2. The only reference to Victor Wilfred Piedot is his probate record showing he died 21 Jan 1944 on active service and that he lived in Edinburgh (54 Bruntsfield Gardens at the time of his death) with his wife Yvonne (she remarried in 1951 to a Mr Krolla)

    I am not sure the details in the CWGC info are correct. Finding no birth or marriage to Yvonne in the Ancestry (UK) records for Victor is odd, so perhaps he was an immigrant into the UK at some point.
     
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Pieter

    For D E Pinkard, there are 5 family trees in existence for him, and they show:

    Parents : Ernest Albert and Carrie Florence (nee Batchelor)
    Date of birth : 21 May 1921 - Hampshire (UK)
    Date of death: 21 Jan 1944

    So he looks like he was UK born and the CWGC details for parents appear to match Ancestry

    Hope this Ancestry link opens for you http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=donald&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=pinkard&gsln_x=XO&cpxt=1&uidh=5nr&cp=11&gl=42&so=2

    Note the birth cert is for Ernest D Pinkard, I can only assume he became known as Donald Ernest to differentiate between himself and his father.


    England & Wales, Birth Index, 1916-2005 about Ernest D Pinkard




    Name:

    Ernest D Pinkard

    Mother's Maiden Surname:

    Batchelor

    Date of Registration:

    Apr-May-Jun 1921

    Registration District:

    Salisbury

    Inferred County:

    Wiltshire

    Volume Number:

    5a

    Page Number:

    286
     
  13. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Thanks AlanW, your info eventually led me to :
    http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=1&msT=1&gss=angs-c&gsfn_x=XO&gsln=piedot&gsln_x=XO&cpxt=1&uidh=5nr&cp=11&pcat=BMD_BIRTH&h=28028994&recoff=9&db=FreeBMDBirth&indiv=1&ml_rpos=122

    confirming your answer and image - do not know why it took so long to find :(

    In 1939 he married Yvonne Newman in Wandsworth http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?db=ONSmarriage1984&h=46063057&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=8912


    Edited to add: looking through other family trees as afar back as 1840, the Piedots lived in London and SE England
     
  14. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    I checked Hemel Hempstead memorial and he is not on there
    PIEDOT, VICTOR WILFRED
    Rank:Flight Sergeant
    Trade:Nav.
    Service No:1559966
    Date of Death:21/01/1944
    Age:30
    Regiment/Service:Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 76 Sqdn.
    Grave Reference9. A. 8.
    Cemetery: BERLIN 1939-1945 WAR CEMETERY
    Additional Information: Son of Arthur Samuel and Rosa Piedot; husband of Yvonne Piedot, of Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire. A.C.I.S.







    Piedot, Victor Wilfred


    Flight Sergeant


    21-Jan-44


    Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve


    76 Sqd


    http://www.hemelatwar.org/those%20who%20died-2.html
     
  15. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    Could I throw something in here that may explain "The German"!

    Could these two airmen be German speakers, which were used on allied aircraft to countermand German orders to night fighters etc?

    According to Chorley BCL's, Sgt Piedot was an Associate of the Chartered Institute of Secretaries.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  16. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    Thank you Tricky Dicky, for providing these genealogical details.

    CL1, but he is mentioned on that Hemel at War website you found as well. So he might have lived there sometime.

    Geoff, that could be a explanation. But why would they have two people who speak German aboard? Besides that, this wasn't a experienced crew, 21 January was their first and only mission. Would they have tasked such an inexperienced crew with an extra task?
     
  17. spidge

    spidge RAAF RESEARCHER Patron

    Hi Peter,

    Just putting up something for discussion. The German speaker was usually an extra to the crew so may not be correct however with a German speaker among the crew they may not have needed that extra person.

    If so, there must be something in the files somewhere.

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  18. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Pieter
    Yes he would possibly be associated to Hemel via his wifes connection


    regards
    Clive
     
  19. Pieter F

    Pieter F Very Senior Member

    But unfortunatelly that website contains no more information besides the basic information from the CWGC.
     
  20. Caluna

    Caluna New Member

    Further information about Victor Piedot has recently been added to Hemel at War
    PiedotVW
     

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