Douglas Byng Wiltshire 2/6 Battalion East Surrey Regiment K I A 7th June 1940

Discussion in 'British Army Units - Others' started by frank@daley -uk.com, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Hi All
    I'm looking for info on my Uncle 6145012 L/Cpl Douglas Byng Wiltshire
    2/6 Battalion East Sirrey Regiment K I A 7th June 1940. He has no known grave. I know that he was one of two men killed on that day.What I'm trying to find out is where if possible he was lost. I was hoping that anyone near Kew could have a look at the Regiments war diaries to see if they could glean any more information. Thanking you in advance
    Frank Daley X Cpl 9/12th Royal Lancers
     
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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  3. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Funny how the internet brings things up. I think I know where your uncle is actually buried along with another 2/6 East Surrey chap I've been researching for around 3 years now. I have also walked along the defensive line where I believe he was fighting along with my chap called LCpl Walker.

    I'm on for a early night tonight as I'm up at 330am to go to the National Archives but he's a teaser or two that could be your uncles grave.
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  4. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    KEEN, CHARLES REGINALD
    Rank:
    Private
    Service No:
    6136755
    Date of Death:
    07/06/1940
    Age:
    34
    Regiment/Service:
    East Surrey Regiment
    1st Bn.
    Panel Reference:
    Column 60.
    Memorial:
    DUNKIRK MEMORIAL
    Additional Information:
    Son of William Emmanuel and Emma Louisa Keen; husband of Violet Mary Keen, of Bolton, Lancashire.


    WALKER, EDWARD KENNETH BATCHELOR
    Rank:
    Lance Corporal
    Service No:
    6142052
    Date of Death:
    07/06/1940
    Age:
    19
    Regiment/Service:
    East Surrey Regiment
    2/6th Bn.
    Panel Reference:
    Column 60.
    Memorial:
    DUNKIRK MEMORIAL
    Additional Information:
    Son of Eric Batchelor Walker and Agatha Frances Bryans Walker, of Kensington, London.
     
  5. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Frank, Your uncle was reported on two Army Casualty Lists:

    List No. 271 dated 2 August 1940
    France, Missing
    2/6 Bn The East Surrey Regiment
    6145012 Wiltshire L/Cpl DB date of casualty 10.6.40
    [Note: he is alongside 47 other men of the regiment also missing on this date]

    List No. 1840 dated 24 August 1945
    Previously reported missing now presumed killed in action
    6145012 Wiltshire L/Cpl DB date of casualty on or shortly after 7.6.40

    As was customary he was also reported on the British Army ‘List of missing combatants – circulation among POW camps’. As the name suggests this was circulated to POW camps in case of capture. Your uncle was on the lists of March 1941 and April 1942.

    Good luck with your search.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
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  6. Wow that was quick Many thanks
     
  7. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    I am sure that you have already found it, but just in case, the Regiment has a website. Queens

    It once had a museum at Clandon Park in Surrey, unfortunately this was destroyed by a fire in 2015, being local, I went there many times, the memorabilia that was lost was tragic. Clandon

    Surviving records have been transferred to the Surrey History Centre at Woking Surrey HC that may be an avenue.

    Also may be worth looking for information on some of the other divisions/regiments that were involved. The ESR were part of the 37 Infantry Bde of the 12 (Eastern) Infantry Division. There is also some information here 51HD
     
  8. Could you please let me have the location of that Churchyard many thanks
     
  9. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Rest assured that once Drew is back at his p.c., he'll give you chapter and verse.
     
  10. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    From memory.

    My interest in this topic is I won LCpl Walkers medals a few years ago in an auction.

    2/6th East Surreys was a labour battalion sent to France poorly equipped to do menial tasks like digging, guarding instalions and dumps etc. They were not supposed to fight and as such had very little in the way of support weapons like Bren guns, mortars and anti-tank rifles. The battalion was defending an area near Aumale. The battalion was with a battery from the 101st Anti-Tank/Anti-Aircraft Regiment part of 1st Armour Support Group. The two units were over ran by 1 or 2 Panzer Divisions, 5th and or 6th I think. Virtually all the battalion was killed or captured.

    I have searched the area extensively for graves and found the churchyard a few miles away from where the battalion was defending. There are three graves next to each other and originally all were unknown but one was later identificed at 2/6 East Surrey chap in the 1950's or 1960's I think, his headstone is now marked with his details. The other two are still marked unknown - I believe them to be LCpls Walker and Wiltshire. I need to contact CWGC at some point and ask what evidence was found to name one of the graves to see if that reveals anything.

    A local historian/researcher Mathieu (Jericho) emailed (x2) the local Marie for me to see if they had any documentation on the graves but got no reply.

    I still need to create a list of 2/6 PoWs and see how many completed Liberation Report forms and if any mention Walker or Wilsthire as in the battalions Missing Men file (If I remember correctly) one or both of them have a Q19 against their name which suggests they may have been murdered by the Germans but that's a big IF at the moment.

    The cemetery is called Quincampoix Fleuzy Churchyard and the East Surrey chap is called Richard Farmer

    Casualty Details

    Cemetery Details
     
  11. Thank you so much for your help. I feel that one of the two unknowns is my Uncle . My son and I plan to take a trip to France later to pay our respects . Once more thank you
    Frank Daley
     
  12. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Just to add a smidgen from CWGC...
    Location Information
    Quincampoix-Fleuzy is a village and commune 46 kilometres north-west of Beauvais, and 23 kilometres south-east of Aumale. Quincampoix is the main part of the commune and Fleuzy a hamlet. The graves of 4 soldiers from the United Kingdom, 2 of whom are unidentified, are on the south side of the church.

    When you look at the Grave Registration section, it details that Grave 1 is a civilian (unnamed, so presumably not a local) Grave 2 is vacant, Grave 3 is L/Cpl Penrice; no Grave 4 (?); Grave 5 is Farmer and 2 Unknowns in 6 and 7.
    As to how Farmer came to be identified, I don't know the answer to that. I'd guess that as the document is dated 2 Dec 1959, that some form of exhumation and reburial took place, at which time items allowing Farmer to be identified were found.
    Hope that assists in some small way.
     
  13. Thank you for that information. I know that I cannot be certain but I'm more certain than ever that L/Cpl Douglas Byng Wiltshire is one off them. Strange that some 28 years later I was to become a L/Cpl abit in a Cavalry Reg not Infantry
     
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  14. Could you please explain what a Q19 against a name means
     
  15. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Frank if you visit you may like to bear this incident in mind.

    When I discovered the graves a couple of years ago I tried to balance LCpl Walkers medals on the middle grave of the three that are together and they kept falling off. After 4 attempts I tried the one on right as you look at them and they stayed on the headstone first time. Now I'm in no way superstitious but I can assure you the hairs on the back of my neck stood up and a shiver went down my spine. So as far as I'm concerned Walker is on the right and Wiltshire is in the middle.

    I'm waiting to find out if I'm on a 9 week course starting next month if I don't get on it I'll be in the area around the end of May with a mate, we'll be paying our respects to them as well.
     
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  16. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Kevin - I can't help think a relative did some research post WW2 on him and found the evidence needed to identify Farmer. I'd love to know and will ask CWGC at some point if they know.
     
  17. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Frank - At the end of the war all liberated POWs were asked to fill out a questionnaire. One of the questions was 'Did you witness any war crimes'. If they answered yes they normally gave a brief account on the form and then completed a form called Q19. This form was then passed to the War Crimes Investigating Department who investigated the alleged crime and if anyone could be tried as a war criminal.

    All the surviving Q Forms are at the National Archives in London but are in no particular order.
     
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  18. Once again thank you for your help
     
  19. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    There are documented examples where burials have been identified much later based on details or personal effects noted at the initial interment. Local enquiries may help here. There may well have been a report by a local doctor or a journal written by the parish priest. A CWGC enquiry from a family member is a good place to start though. They may have noted a description or even effects that simply could not be linked at the time. The discontinuation of brass titles on battledress works against us here too.
     
  20. Drew5233

    Drew5233 #FuturePilot 1940 Obsessive

    Rich - They were a labour battalion so I'm wondering if they would still have been wearing the service dress? I need you and Jan to come on the next trip to knock on some doors for me :lol:
     

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