Searching info

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by darren milner, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    Hi folks. I’m a newbie on here searching for info on my grandfather. He died during WW2 when my dad was around 3-5 years old. Not 100% sure what year as we have no death certificate. However we do have a marriage certificate. It states Cyril Frank Milner was in 53rd Coy RASC. He may have been known as Francis Milner. He was at the Victoria Barracks in Belfast 16/01/37. Any help/advice will be grateful.
  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    Hello Darren
    you will need to apply for his service records
    Get a copy of military service records
    Im sure a forum member will be along shortly to assist further

    there are a number deaths of C F Milner deaths registered during that period

    What area was he born /married
    Do you have wifes name
    Anything else of interest

    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
    Tony56 likes this.
  3. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Can you post a copy of the marriage certificate and any other details you have - maybe details from your fathers birth certificate to match up a mothers maiden name etc

    Tony56 likes this.
  4. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    Wife’s name Ruby Iris Chambers. Married in Belfast. 16/01/37.
  5. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    I don’t know his DOB. I know he was 22 when he was married and where he lived. I have his regiment but that’s it.
  6. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I would still like to see a copy of the marriage certificate. Also we now know a little more as we have an approximate year of birth which we did not have before.

    Deleted part of this post as the details were incorrect

    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  7. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    He was 22 when married in 1937. So makes his date DOB 1914-1915. He’s place of birth will be West Yorkshire possibly
  8. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    If you can send me your email address I can send the marriage cert. I cant paste it into here for some reason.
  9. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Checking the 1939 Register for a Ruby Iris Milner results in:

    Ruby Milner 25 Mar 1886 Worcestershire, England William A

    Ruby L Milner 26 Sep 1903 Sussex, England May

    Ruby M Milner 4 Oct 1908 Middlesex, England William D

    Ruby L Milner 10 Sep 1911 Leicestershire, England Sidney T

    Ruby I Milner 6 Nov 1913 Yorkshire (West Riding), England

    According to their birth dates none of these would fit with your relative as they are obviously too old. My presumption from the above is that as they married in Belfast [would really like to see the marriage certificate] they either stayed in Northern ireland or he was already signed up and they moved overseas. It appears they were not in Enland & Wales in 1939

  10. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    How to add images to a post explained here.
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  11. darren milner

    darren milner Member

    Married in Belfast 1937. CF Milner died during WW2. Date unknown. Born in Huddersfield I think. RI Milner moved back to Huddersfield after death. She re married to a William Hey late 40’s I think. Cheers
  12. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    OK - so whats going on here - everything so far from yourself has been guesswork, there has been no real facts

    Is your fathers name Frank Henry Milner - if so he was born 15 Oct 1937, which would be at or around exactly the same date as his parents married in Belfast. Northern Ireland [as Scotland] keep their own records so you would need to apply there for his birth certificate which may provide details of his father and help you on your way.

    As yet I can find no death for a Cyril Milner between 1939 and 1945 - do you have any idea where he died

    The other interesting information to note is that in the 1939 Register there is a Ruby Iris Milner [who later married a Mr Hey] but her marital status is shown as 'Single'
    Name: Ruby I Milner
    [Ruby I Hey]
    Gender: Female
    Marital Status: Single
    Birth Date: 6 Nov 1913
    Residence Year: 1939
    Address: ??ly Bank Road 28
    Residence Place: Huddersfield, Yorkshire (West Riding), England

  13. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    He's not listed on CWGC.
    Well I can't find him .

    Sounds like something on I heard on radio last week. The father was a bigamist & daughter was told Dad had died in the war when he legged it . :(
  14. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I have tried a search for deaths of Milner (Military & Civilian) with possible combinations of Cyril, Frank and Francis [and even without any of those] between 1939 and 1945 - results = zero

  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    I have also sent you a conversation with my email address to send me the marriage certificate. Check your profile page to see the conversation

  16. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

  17. KevinBattle

    KevinBattle Senior Member

    Like others, there seems to be something inconsistent.
    I can't imagine the marriage details would be incorrect, the Army should have got the facts correct, so it looks as if the only way we can square this circle is for you to apply for his Service records, using the details from a copy of his marriage certificate. It should show his fathers name etc.

    There is only ONE Cyril Frank death recorded in the CWGC for an RASC casualty
    MANN, CYRIL FRANK. Lance Corporal. Service Number S/198804. Died 04/07/1941. Aged 25
    Royal Army Service Corps.
    Son of Mr. and Mrs. W. F. Mann; husband of Margaret L. Mann, of Chesham, Buckinghamshire.

    As you can see, that doesn't fit easily with what you say. Age might fit at a squeeze, but it could be a bigamous marriage, or that they split soon after and "Milner" resumed his proper name..... Separation could allow Ruby to describe herself as single in 1939, but it doesn't appear she had a child with her.

    His age might have been "incorrect, there is an Electoral Roll entry
    Electoral Roll Name: Cyril Milner. Year: 1935. West Yorkshire
    Parliamentary Division: Don Valley. Place of Abode: Laneside, Don Valley
    and in 1935 the age was 21 before you could vote, pushing him into 1914 range for DoB
    Laneside is only some 6 miles from the centre of Huddersfield.

    What else can you find out from family members? Anyone recall when he died, where? Date may give us a clue to where he could have been fighting and thus what units he might have been involved with.

    You should be prepared for the info that he died to be "incorrect" as there doesn't appear to be a CWGC entry for him....
    Was your father the Frank Henry Milner TD asked about in Post #12? Perhaps if we pinned him down we might better reconstruct things
    4jonboy, CL1 and Tricky Dicky like this.
  18. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    OK I have now attached the copy of the "Marriage Certificate" that Darren has mentioned previously.

    However I note that no one has actually signed it anywhere, so is it a real one and if so is it legal as it stands??

    Or - is a blank that has been filled in for whatever reason

    Sorry Darren - we need to ask these questions as we are looking at it in the cold light of day


    Attached Files:

  19. dbf

    dbf Moderatrix MOD

    It's a certified copy of "entry of marriage", requested long after the fact - not a 'photocopy' of the registry entry or of original document. Lack of 'autographs' perfectly normal.

    I also checked burial records for burial records for Belfast - limited to certain cemeteries. No luck there either.
    Belfast City Council. Online forms. Purchase Online Burial Record Images. V1.1

    Just because someone "died during WW2" / were in Army in 1937 doesn't necessarily mean that they were still on active service at the time of death...

    ( I've no idea of his nationality, but it is important to note that Conscription did not apply to NI. )
    Tricky Dicky likes this.
  20. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    So her father - I can only find 1 that fits the bill at the moment

    Ireland, Civil Registration Births Index, 1864-1958
    Name: Samuel Alexander Chambers
    Date of Registration: 1866
    Registration district: Newry
    Birth Country: Ireland
    Volume: 6
    Page: 890
    FHL Film Number: 101043

    As for his father
    1911 England Census
    Name: Henry Coultas Milner
    Age in 1911: 29
    Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
    Relation to Head: Head
    Gender: Male
    Birth Place: Newholm Cum Dunsley, Yorkshire, England
    Civil Parish: Lindley cum Quarmby
    Search Photos: Search for 'Lindley cum Quarmby' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
    County/Island: Yorkshire-West Riding
    Country: England
    Street address: 46 Oakes Rd Lindley Huddersfield Yorkshire
    Marital Status: Married
    Occupation: Joiner
    Registration district: Huddersfield
    Registration District Number: 495
    Sub-registration district: Lockwood
    ED, institution, or vessel: 19
    Piece: 26342
    Household Members:
    Name Age
    Henry Coultas Milner 29
    Clara Milner 23
    Kennith Milner 2
    Kathleen Milner 6/12

    Then in the 1939 Register
    Name: Henry Milner
    Gender: Male
    Marital Status: Married
    Birth Date: 12 Dec 1881
    Residence Year: 1939
    Address: 48
    Residence Place: Huddersfield, Yorkshire (West Riding), England
    Occupation: Dairy Farmer
    Schedule Number: 17
    Sub Schedule Number: 1
    Enumeration District: KFIX
    Registration district: 495/8
    Household Members:
    Henry Milner
    Clarice Milner
    This record is officially closed.
    Peter Milner

    Not sure how he would have gone from a chauffeur in 1937 to a dairy Farmer in 1939, thats a big leap in terms of occupation especially at about 58 years of age


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