Searching for more information Chindits 2 King's Own

Discussion in 'Burma & India' started by D00B, Jan 2, 2015.

  1. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Hello all, I am new to this site, so please forgive me if this is posted in the wrong section.

    I am doing some research into my Grandfathers service during WW2. From what I have found thus far, he served in the 2nd Battalion Kings Own 111th Brigade as a Chindit.

    I have recently been given his Burma star, but I'd like to know more about his service. Due to alot of his things being lost, including some of his medals bar one, I am finding it difficult. I don't have his discharge book or number. His name was Joseph Thomas Jones.

    Would anyone be able to point me in the right direction?

    I've already found that to get replacement medals I would have to do this through the eldest next of kin, this is going to be a challenge in its self as we are not exactly close.

    Anything anyone can tell me would be great.
    I have attached a picture in case this helps any

    Many thanks
     

    Attached Files:

  2. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi D00B,

    That is a great photo of your grandfather, complete with Chindit insignia. We have a forum member called Hebridean Chindit who has researched all things 111th Brigade. He, I'm sure be along shortly to help.

    I would still recommend, if you have not done so already, applying for your grandfather's Army Service records from the MOD offices at Glasgow. You can apply with his death certificate if you do not have a service number available. Here is the link to their website:

    http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140805133045/http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
     
  3. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Thanks for getting back to me, He passed away a few years ago, so getting his death cert should be easy enough. I have another grandfather (mothers side) that also served, but no applicable on this thread as he was R.A.S.C.

    Anyway, looking forward to seeing what we can get.
     
  4. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Anthony, it would be a good idea to add some unit information in your thread title, or at least add 'Chindits' to it. That will attract interest from the right members.
    Or ask one of the Moderators to add it for you - they are quite accommodating!
     
    D00B likes this.
  5. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Thanks Mike, are you able to point me in the direct of a mod? I'd like to make this visible to the correct people :)
     
  6. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Anthony, easiest way is to look for anyone with their name in green on the 'current users' list on the front page.
    Alternatively send a Private Message to 'Owen', he is usually helpful but is not in the forum at the moment, or 'Von Poop' is the Administrator. If you aren't sure how to send a PM ask back here.
     
  7. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    ok, thanks
     
  8. Mike L

    Mike L Very Senior Member

    Anthony, good to see you in the chat room, Owen had already added the info to your thread title as I requested.

    Very friendly lot here generally, especially with a Chindit connection.

    Very occasionally wider discussions get a bit out of hand but there are some great Mods and Admin in charge and it is quickly sorted out.

    Good to have you on board.
     
  9. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    Anthony... howdy and welcome...
    King's Own museum has some nice items that might help in understanding what they went through (most notably A Chaplain With The Chindits by Reverend W H Miller) and has some interesting pictures, including the only known images taken at "Blackpool"...

    A link to the picture page is here...
    http://www.kingsownmuseum.plus.com/gallerywwtwo108.htm

    Medals...
    Don't bother with trying to get "replacements" as you can easily buy them on ebay or some-such place - unless he was "decorated" all the medals were un-named, so other than sentimental reasons (I have my dad's and granddad's, both of whom had Burma Stars) these are just as good for a display... bide your while and wait for the-price-is-right - it would be possible to get the (probable minimum 4) medals he had, as individuals (do not buy a "group" as much more expensive) for under £100 in total...

    CBI pages...
    My threads on Blackpool, Gert and Daisy, and the 111th, plus input on the maps section within the CBI pages will also be of interest, as (once fully posted) you will be able to see the route the 2nd KORR took throughout Burma...

    Books...
    Essentials are John Masters' "The Road Past Mandalay" (1960's hardback is best) and Richard Rhodes James' "Chindit" - both give command info on the overall action covered by 111th IIB... further notes elsewhere...

    First things first, as already noted, you need his Army records to know when/where he served... research can sometimes lead to disappointing results...
    Caveat Emptor... we had one writer who came on here, posted for a while, then published a title... it transpired that his dad was in brigade's associated with the Chindits but never went in as he was "X" listed (hospitalised or unfit for duties), so his book is very much a re-hash of existing material... I've been told I'm credited in the book but do not have a copy and was never offered one... at some future point I may get one for curiosity value, but nothing more... ;)
     
    bamboo43 likes this.
  10. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Thank you for all your help with this, please forgive me for asking what might be a silly question, but what medals would he be entitled to? Obviously the Burma star. I'm assuming perhaps the war medal and 39-45 star, I even stretch to maybe the Pacific star? I will most certainly look into the books mentioned and I'm going to have to make it to the museum.

    What might be the best way to get his service number? I've tried forces-war-records.co.uk and he isn't even listed as a name.

    Thanks again for all your info
     
  11. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Ah, I see that I must apply to Glasgow to get them. I'll get onto that today.

    I'm not sure if this is any interest to anyone, but I also have the silk scarf he wore, the one with the map on the back. To be fair, it's pretty blooming awesome.
     
  12. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Hi Anthony,

    Already braved the Chat Room, you are are better man than me. You have his escape map there, by the sounds of it. Men were issued with these in case they became separated from their group and needed direction.

    As HC says, the key is the service records. Without them, you can easily go off down the wrong route.

    For instance, if Joseph was with the 2 KORR for the entire war, he probably would be entitled to the Africa Star medal as the battalion served in the Middle East and North Africa before they travelled to India. He would not have had the Pacific Star medal, this is only because this medal can not be awarded to anyone who already possesses the Burma Star, or vice-versa. Any personnel who were entitled to both, received a small clasp to wear on the medal they qualified for first.

    There is a great thread on here which tells you all about medal entitlement for WW2:

    http://ww2talk.com/forums/topic/51086-ww2-campaign-stars-medals-info-thread/?hl=%2Bww2+%2Bmedals

    There are war diaries for the 2 KORR held at the National Archives. It is possible that the KORR museum might hold these too?

    For their time in India/Burma the references are:

    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO172%2F2520

    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=WO172%2F4886

    These are not available to read on line I'm afraid. War diaries rarely mention soldiers of lower rank, but they do normally record what the battalion was up to at the time and where they were based etc. These might prove useful to you in the future.

    Best wishes

    Steve
     
  13. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    Thanks Steve,
    Time to get these service records then. I'll keep you posted on the developments.
     
  14. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    Medals...

    If born circa 1923 (15/16 in '39) he would probably have ended up with the 39-45 Star, the 39-45 War Medal, and the Burma Star; outside chance of the Defence Medal...
    If born earlier maybe the Africa Star...

    Records first, and this will be months, not weeks of waiting, so you know what you need to find... at least you have a picture of him clearly showing the Chindit patch... fyi... it appears that there was no official maker for these, as I've seen images of dozens and dozens of differing patterns... and a further fyi... no insignia of any rank was worn in Burma... oh yes, if you don't have his original patch, they are starting to sell for three figure sums and personally I'm beginning to view "originals" with suspicion... decent replicas turn up circa £20...

    I have all the diary files for Burma period for the 2nd KORR (WO172/4886) and some are of interest... 25 pages of actual diary notes and some Officer "returns" (ranks Lieutenant and upwards named)
    Those I'll eventually be posting on here...

    The silk "Panic" map was never worn and only used for "signalling" emergency purposes - they are quite rare - If you can, lay it out and take a picture of it to post here... I've never seen one "in the flesh" but know of owners - there are numerous "forgeries" out there, some being multi-colour maps... my dad noted that only one member of his platoon (40 men) had one and only saw it being used once (whilst they were all listed MIA) ...

    Kenny

    Me ol' Bamboo... are there MIA lists for the 2nd KORR's...? Never thought to look for those... I have too many files... :biggrin:
     
  15. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    I'll get it laid out and post a picture. I have no reason to believe it's not authentic, it's certainly old. I can ask other family members (some) and see if his patch is still about.
    I'm told by my father that his dad lost his strips due to knocking out his superior officer over something. Not sure if this was done whilst in Burma, perhaps they noted that :)
     
  16. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    Yes, file reference WO361/502.
     
  17. Hebridean Chindit

    Hebridean Chindit Lost in review...

    Cheers Steve...

    Anthony... that's why it's important to have family items, when it comes to such things... and as for his stripes... if he was naughty in Burma he might have been advised to walk home... on his own... not joking...!
    Looking forward to the pic... ;)
    Can you place something next to it to show scale please...
    An elderly lady I know loaned her late husband's one to the writer I mentioned earlier... sent it by post... un-recorded... he used it on the cover of his book... she did get it back... it is displayed at her home in a big glass frame... that is a good method of preserving them, as long as it is UV blocking glass and not under direct sunlight... if you want it to last for your kids and theirs, store it flat, unfolded...!
     
  18. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    He was born 4th May 1918, date of enlistment is yet unknown
     
  19. D00B

    D00B Active Member

    I'm currently *holding* it for my cousin as what items we have were shared between us after his death. I assume if he was naughty, that'll be recorded somewhere. Al be it the story is true.

    I like the idea of having it mounted, but like all things, I really don't want it to be a target for some scumbag who might brake in.
     
  20. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member

    I don't suppose your cousin has anything that might provide Joseph's service number?

    I wish I had acquired this escape map when it was up on eBay about 5 years ago. It belonged to an officer of the Royal Engineers on Operation Longcloth.

    009.jpg
     

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