Hi I've posted in the past about the Scout carrier that I'm restoring, I thought I'd post a picture now it's running. There's a few details still to add but it's getting there. I've been allowed to keep the original 1939 reg number by the DVLA which is a bonus. It's finished in the basic KG3 scheme that it would of left the factory wearing, apart from division markings this is pretty much how a BEF carrier would look. I'll be taking it to the W&P show in a few days time so please say hello if you're going. I'd like to take it to Dunkirk next year if there's enough interest. Ben
Why not also take it to Norway Looks fantastic, really glad its been restored to look at how it should and not say rebuilt as a Universal. Top stuff.
Wonderful stuff, Ben and amazing that DVLA allowed the ex-Ministry registration number without any paperwork to back it up....or have you found the missing Middlesex ledgers ? (I live in hope that they're out there somewhere). I shan't be back in England for W&P but it would be great to see it in Dunkirk next year. There is not much on-line yet but a couple of us are certainly intending to be there on BEF motorcycles and I believe that Drew has planned a trip.
Swiper, were there any Scout Carriers in Norway ? They are mostly associated with Divisional Cavalry or occasionally as AoPs. I'm not sure where they would have fitted into the brigade structures sent to Norway. Did 3 Hussars have some with them ? They don't seem to have taken their main armour.
I'm aware that the SSCs had Carriers with them, and indications were Scout Carriers - but photos are lacking. Equally its not something I've been able to fully hash out.
ANY info on Scouts is of interest as so few were made. I thought they only went to France and N Africa? They were replaced by universal carriers in 1940 so any action would need to be very early. Rich, no ledgers but the civil number was still painted on the front (I've kept it) and the vehicle still had its brass manufactures plate that has the "T number" stamped onto it. The contract card from Bovington holds all the info and is official proof that the reg and T numbers match. A very helpful employee also listed how many carriers were made each day of production on the back of the card, by counting them back I know mine rolled off the production line on the 17th July 1939, 75 in a few days time. Ben
Hi Ben.....See you at Dunkirk in May and or June. Ps Can my 8 month old son who is absolutely mental on all things BEF (He doesn't know it yet mind) have a sit in your Carrier?
Andy, I was going to say that he could have a sit on a BEF Norton but he might have his Dad's talent for ending up underneath :P
I'll hold him unless you get a side car and he can pretend he is in 4 RNF. I need to get him a BEF outfit for next year, he likes dressing up !
There's obviously a little more detail on the A vehicle record cards than there are for motorcycles as I've never been able to make a link with the pre-war civil registrations. They are a treasure trove though and I've been through the same exercise of back-calculating delivery dates. In the case of Nortons, the factory production records for the first few hundered of my contract still exist and it's possible to see how quantities despatched by the factory were booked in at Chilwell two to three days later. On this basis, I was able to pin mine delivery of mine down to 21/12/1939 which somehow seemed much nicer than 1940. I've been tidying up my 'saved' images and have found a couple of pictures of BEF Scouts that may well be from your contract. I don't know if you've seen them before. An RMY Scout with an oddly indecipherable number :- This looks like T5262 to me. Marked up to 4 Medium Regt. RA so presumably used in the AOP rôle. The original of this IWM image taken from Blaxland shows it to be T5277 and it carries the markings of 2 Medium Regiment RA. Clearly converted for AOP use but if I'm reading Nigel Watson correctly, not actually built as such ? It's standing next to a Norton 16H. We could do a 'then & now' if you fancy clattering up to Brussels !
Drew, bring him along, happy to let him have his photo taken. I'd like to find some period photos showing carriers so that I can try to find the locations and replicate the shot today, I think some of you did it with bikes! It's interesting you mention the AOP role. The AOP MK1 looks almost identical to a Scout, you really have to look to spot the differences I've only ever seen shots of them used by the BEF. Like most pre universal carriers the events around Dunkirk made the majority extinct in allied use. A few survived in North Africa but the were quickly replaced by the MK1 universal. Nigel's books are great but the AOP MK1 knowledge was only discovered after vol 3 went to print, there are no true AOP MK1's in any of his books. There is very little known about pre universal carriers as so few survive. Ben
Ben, that's interesting. Bearing in mind that Nigel lists Aveling Barford as manufacturer of all the Universal AOPs, is there the implication that a quantity of the 296 vehicles supplied under T6024 (your contract ?) were actually supplied by them as Scout-based AOP Mk1s ? It is the sort of deviation from original contract terms that is sometimes seen on the ex-Chilwell (now Bovington) RAOC receipt cards. Is there anything on the T6024 card to show that some were different ? It can't be co-incidence that the photos above show (probably) T5262 and T5277 both marked to Medium Regts. RA. Have we got a pre-universal carriers thread ? I have to say that I like the lines of all the early ones, especially the way they ride nose-high. I'm pretty sure that I can find the Brussels location in the photo above but most BEF images show abandoned vehicles in indistinct locations. We're going to have another go at some more bike locations next year but 4RNF only had motorcycles and Mk1 Dingos. No carriers in the photos (shame !)
As far as I'm aware all the a Scouts in that batch were made as Scouts. This variation of use is surely one of the main reasons to have a "universal" carrier rather than very similar specific types. We only discovered the variation after trying to confirm stowage and comparing T numbers. The Scout and AOP MK1 are so similar in every respect that it's almost a joke. Picture below of an AOP MK1, can you spot the differences? They only made 95 AOP MK1's, none are known to survive. I believe all went to France. The fact that the Scouts are marked in the AOP role just hi lights to me how similar they were. I'll have to dig out some pictures after W&P of possible locations. I hope to speak to some folk at the show to find out if there is a plan for a group of vehicles to make the trip. An early carrier thread is a great idea.
Unless some drawings or specifications turn up, it will be difficult to know what the differences were between standard Scouts and the Scout-based AOPs. If the interior is visible then the line-laying drum and guides seem to give the most visible clue but it's quite a bolt-on affair. I've posted this photo on the forum before, but I'm not sure where. It was captioned on eBay as 'Berthen 21/5/1940' which is odd as I didn't think that Berthen (close to the Mont des Cats) fell as early as that. The '3' AoS indicates an Infantry Div Field Regt but without the Formation sign, it's guesswork. 50 Div were there so it could be from 72 Field Regt. I assumed that this was a Scout utilised in the AOP rôle but based on the information that the Mk1s used this form, it may well be a proper AOP.
That's an AOP. All the gear on the back is none standard, perhaps added by the Germans? Or a local modification to suit a specific role. The AOP has a vertical shutter rather than gunners slot, no 4" smoke stowage bin behind the large tool box on the LH track guard, the aerial is mounted half way down the RH armour instead of at the back, this means the aerial hook moves forward too and the stowage on the engine deck is a different layout, the Bren spare barrel box is often missing too but I'm not sure that's official or just missing. Another AOP below
Scout Carriers of 1st Infantry Division's Div Cav. 13/18 Hussars during the Phoney War period. Quite a well-known image but this is a decent scan...and the Norton is clearly visible. HMC 461 and HMC 459 from the Morris contract C1266.
Ben Sorry not to have seen you and your excellent carrier at W&P. I wandered round in the blazing sun all Friday afternoon and still don't think I covered the whole site. I saw a lot of jeeps though. On the AOP Mk I I think you and Rich have just about said it all. My understanding of the sources is that there were 95 AOP Mk Is numbered T5984-6078. They were modified Scout carriers with the features you describe - the aerial being moved forward on the right side because a slot for a map table was added to the rear half of the right side. I think some confusion arises because when the BEF first went to France the AOP Mk Is were not yet available so the medium and field artillery regiments were given 'real' Scout carriers instead. One of these is the 2 Medium Regt Scout carrier that Rich has posted. Clearly, however, the AOP Mk Is did arrive later because they appear in photos and have WD census numbers within the 95 mentioned above. I have not yet seen any evidence of the AOP Mk II, based on the Universal carrier and depicted in Nigel Watson's book, being in France. Andrew
Hi Andrew Sorry not to have met at the show, loads of people stopped and had a chat always interesting to hear people's stories. It was a busy week! I did a photo shoot for a magazine so with any luck it'll make it to print, I'll post details when I'm aware. A teaser below. Ben
