Scout carrier, Capuzzo 1940 details for restoration needed

Discussion in 'North Africa & the Med' started by Ben H, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Hello

    I have recently imported a 1939 Scout carrier back to the UK from Australia. I have the original reg number RMY 683 and Vehicle number T5329. It's very rare to have a vehicle survive that saw active service so I'd like to get it's details correct if possible.

    I'm trying to track down which units it may have served with. There is a IWM photo that shows carrier RMY 681 at fort capuzzo so I think that's my best guess as a start point as the vehicles are only a couple of digits apart.

    I'm keen to try and find which units operated Scouts and Brens in North Africa and see if their records have any mention of the carriers.

    I know very little about the North African campaign so any help would be great. I'm particularly looking for photos of early carriers to help with the stowage used. I'm happy to post a couple of pictures of the project but I appreciate this isn't a vehicle forum.

    Thanks in advance

    Ben
     
  2. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Welcome to the forum, Ben. Please do post some photos. A little more vehicle input wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion at least, certainly when relating to something as rare and interesting as the scout version.

    You're very lucky to have been able to track down that pre-war Middlesex registration number. Very few of those have survived.

    For so far as I can tell with other vehicles, Royal Ordnance didn't pay a lot of attention to census numbers and registration numbers when allocating vehicles but the closeness of yours does suggest that they might have spent some time in the same Base Ordnance Depot before being allocated.

    My impression with the BEF is that Scouts were mainly used by the reconnaissance units - the Divisional Cavalry - that is assuming that yours wasn't converted to an AOP function for an artillery unit.

    The image that you mention has been posted on this forum (a search for 'RMY' throws up quite a lot, mostly Vickers light tanks).

    http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/weapons-technology-equipment/19993-carrier-2.html

    Apparently it purports to show 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps who were part of 7th Armoured Division Support Group at the time. I can't find any record of the serials and background colour used by such a unit in the Middle East so can't confirm.
     
  3. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Thanks Rich

    I suspect that RMY 651 in the thread you mention may be 681, it shows a universal in front of the scout in question. There is another shot from the same series of a universal leading a scout outside the fort and you can clearly see the scouts reg is RMY 681. I may be wrong but I think it just appears to be 651 as the quality of the print isn't that clear. I would love to be able to trace which of the museums has the original of these series as clearer shots would help a lot.

    I've attached two shots, one showing the hull just as it arrived and the second showing the original painted reg number. I rubbed the top layers of paint off one at a time to reveal the number underneath.

    The carrier is very complete and includes many details usually missing. The only parts really missing are the circular holes in the armour cut by the farmer in Australia, the original engine was still with the hull after 75 years.

    The KRRC is a good place to start the search, thanks. Is there likely to be info at the PRO or do you think i'll need to check with the units themselves?

    Thanks

    Ben

    Ben
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Bluebell

    Bluebell Junior Member

    I'd just like to bump this thread. From what I have read It was A company of the 1st. Bttn. KRRC that were in the carriers at Fort Capuzzo.
    Ben probably doesn't want to make a point of it, however his carrier, RMY 683 is most likely the only surviving Scout carrier left on the planet. Even if there are others, RMY 683 remains a surprisingly complete example.
    Any details from its manufacture, to training in the U.K. shipping and service through North Africa, and including it's service with Western Australian Armed forces will be of great help in assembling a history, of this classic and historically important vehicle.
    I would ask that anybody spotting any old photos of RMY 683 please forward details on to Ben.
    Thank you all.
     
  5. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Having poured over the sites on the web covering this Carrier I can only conclude that this will be a very Historical vehicle when the renovation is finished.

    I do hope that the full provinence of the Carrier is uncovered and look forward to further Posts.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  6. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Had a quick shufti in V1 of Watson's Universal Carrier books, and though I don't know if the info's already been found (probably) here is what he has on that T number:

    T5255-T5550 - Scout Mk.I - Quantity: 296 - Contract No.: T6024 - Manufacturer: Aveling Barford - Reg nos: RMY RM609-RM904
     
  7. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

    That farmer was well protected against boxing kangaroos.

    All the best

    Andreas
     
  8. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Yes the details in Nigel's book are spot on. I'm waiting to hear back from the DVLA to see if they'll let me keep its original reg number. It's being painted as we speak so I hope to have it back by Monday in its khaki green no3 base coat. I've decided to finish it as it left the factory, any period schemes would have been applied over the base colour so it offers more potential further down the line.

    I've had lots of help regarding its possible use by the Australians in North Africa but not the British. Do you have any ideas on the best place to try and find out? Even the supply routes could yield shipping details.

    Thanks

    Ben
     
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I would have thought Bovington for contract cards etc., but I know such records' survival is partial, and even if they do still exist might not contain much.
    Others on here know far more than me on that score. Hopefully they'll chip in.

    I seem to recall there's an Aveling Barford history/document site on the web somewhere, but memory is weak and I'm on the phone so searching is awkward.
     
  10. Andreas

    Andreas Working on two books

  11. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    I've got the contract card from Bovington, that was good. The Aveling Barford records do exist but contain no specific early info. The unit and movements early in the North Africa campaign are the key to understanding who used what I think.

    Ben
     
  12. Bluebell

    Bluebell Junior Member

    Or any Post manufacture, Pre-embarkation records. She could well have trained with various units before shipping out.
    Is there a day to day history of the KRRC and it's movements around going to North Africa?
    Ben, Maybe you could post here the production date from the card. Every little bit might help.
     
  13. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Bluebell

    have responded to your e-mail by suggesting to borrow a copy of Vol 1 of Barrie Pitt's "Crucible of war " which gives a fair account of the battle of Fort Capuzzo by 11th Hussars but no mention of carriers of any sort..might be more in Chapter 3..which I didn't go into as it's late

    Cheers
     
  14. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Hi

    I've attached the contract cards from Bovington. I've got no idea where the vehicles went after they were made, I guess there must have been a collection pool from where they were issued to units or sent overseas. That detail may yield answers if details survive.

    Thanks

    Ben
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    I am no expert on WW2 vehicle identification numbers, but I notice that the last post notes the Body Numbers as RMY 609 to 904.

    If this is a Body number it may not be the same as a civilian Registration Plate Number and therefore may not be available to Re-Register with the DVLA.

    Just a thought.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  16. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Tom

    They've written the corresponding civil reg number under the T number, they aren't the body number. These civil and T numbers match up perfectly to other known photos. My vehicle still has the brass makers plate and the painted civil reg, again these all match up.

    Ben
     
  17. Smudger Jnr

    Smudger Jnr Our Man in Berlin

    Ben,

    I am really glad that you should be able to re-register the original index number with DVLA.
    You have a wonderful Project underway.

    Regards
    Tom
     
  18. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Ben, I've looked quite hard at the motorcycle versions of these cards along with 'Rewdco' from the forum. It seems quite clear from the receipt of daily deliveries on the RAOC vehicles and the later inclusion of whole groups of RASC types that these cards formed part (probably a duplicate set) of the RAOC records.

    We seem to have named them 'Contract Receipt Cards' and although Bovington no longer has any record of where they came from, David Fletcher also considers that the most likely source was RAOC Chilwell.

    Chilwell, Notts was the main RAOC depot for the receipt of vehicles. If you're able to examine the Ministry of Supply ledgers in the National Archive, there may well be confirmation that Chilwell was the actual destination for this contract.

    Unfortunately, the records of outgoing destinations do not seem to have survived
    .
    I believe that the only units of KRRC who were in France in 1940 were at Calais without vehicles so yours may have been issued to them in 1939. Starting with the earliest war diaries may turn something up but the chances are not great.
     
  19. Ben H

    Ben H Junior Member

    Thanks again for the info, a trip to the national archives is on the cards. I suspect it'll take some digging to find what if anything survives.

    The KRRC being in France is interesting. Their movements after Dunkirk would be interesting as it might give dates of when they left the UK for N Africa and what equipment they took. All carriers being refered to in the general terms "Bren carriers" is understandable but not very helpful when searching for the specific types.

    Ben
     
  20. Bluebell

    Bluebell Junior Member

    Rich, Is it fair to assume that no carriers were taken off from Dunkirk. I have read about what was lost, but never about equipment getting out.
     

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