Sale of Surplus Vehicles / Returning Vehicles to the UK

Discussion in 'Weapons, Technology & Equipment' started by Roddy1011, Oct 25, 2012.

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  1. Roddy1011

    Roddy1011 Senior Member

    Hi to all -

    I am very keen to start a new thread investigating where all the surplus Allied vehicles ended up after WW2...I am particularly interested in trying to establish where all the armour went - tanks and carriers...

    For instance - from another site - I know 280 T-16 Carriers were sold to the Argentine; Greece received Centaur tanks. And of course, Shermans went all over the place.

    I need to identify the files in TNA that might give some answers and then see if there are corresponding files in the recipient countries. Its all a long shot but one just never knows...

    Any ideas ?

    Roddy
     
  2. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Roddy - there's threads on the postwar use of Shermans and other tanks.

    ALL Britain's Archers were sold to the new state of Israel, for example.

    Some British Shermans were altered by Vickers into the "Shervick" tractor for the Groundnut Scheme in Africa.

    The new Bundeswehr got a lot of Priest SPGs.

    Aregntina got U.S. Shermans starting in 1946...and apparently a number of Sherman Fireflys too! They also bought a number of MkI Crusaders and converted them into an SPG!

    Roddy - there weren't 280 Ford-built T-16s sold to Argentina - there was just over 300! 280 were for the Army...but there was another 24 for the Argentinian Marines. They also bought 327 assorted U.S. halftracks, the M9 predominating.

    The Belgians had Shermans, Chaffees, Priests and M10 tank destoryers - but I have no idea of numbers.

    Brazil got a stack of U.S. armour ...but during the war, in 1944-45; they just( like so many others) KEPT it in service for decades - does THIS count? Same for Chile...

    Colombia got up to 40 M3A1 Stuarts starting in 1947, and various halftracks and armoured cars.

    Cuba got seven (7) Shermans in 1957...all of which were running when Castro took over - and at least one, maybe more, eventually found its way to Angola (as "agricultural machinery"!) to be blown up by the ill-fated mercenary "Col. Callan"! They ALSO bought 15 British Comets in 1958...

    Denmark got 60 Canadian C15TAs, the armoured trucks...which they used as the "M5 4x4 Panzer"!...I.E. as tanks!

    Egypt ended up with an unknown number of the light U.S. M22 Locust tank.

    As well as various vehicles they received and used in North Africa during the war, the Greeks ended up with an unknown number of Chaffees and M8 armoured cars.

    Guatemala got ten Shermans, but I don't know if it was during the war or just after...?

    Haiti got 8 M3A1s and an unknown (but likely small!) number of M5A1s postwar.

    Ireland got a handful of Comets, I'm not sure how many - but they remained in service until 1970.

    Jordan seems to have received Canadian Otters and a few Churchill tanks postwar.

    The Dutch received Shermans and Chaffees; some of the Shermans eventually gave up their turrets during the Cold War to mount on the top of various bunkers controlling the polder sluice gates that the Dutch intended to use to flood their lowlands and "secure" the northwest flank of NATO's Central Region ;)

    Norway got 74 Chaffees.

    Paraguay got a handful of Shermans and Stuarts...but "third hand" from Brazil and Argentina!

    Peru got 40 Shermans in 1956.

    Portugal got Shermans and Sextons...I assume after WWII.

    Uruguay got a number of M3A1s during the war - but 17 Chaffees after the war.

    Venezuela bought an unknown number of M18 Hellcats in 1954...and they're STILL in service!



    All the above comes from my personal knowledge, or the excellent TANKS! site; that site gives a LOT more information,...but doesn't always make the distinction clear whether tanks and other AFVs arrived during or after the war. Where it WAS specific - I've mentioned them ;)
     
  3. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

  4. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Wheels & Tracks magazines #55, 56 & 57 concentrated on postwar Surplus & Disposals.
    Some base figures from there:

    End of war B vehicle totals for the British army:
    1,275,697.
    Consisting of:
    269,604 Motorcyles.
    143,573 cars (inc. Jeeps & Utilitys).
    15,309 Ambulances.
    4,872 Amphibians.
    686,392 trucks.
    59,095 Tractors.
    105,852 trailers.

    Lots more details on the various Participants disposals, Enschede, Boblingen, Butzach Dumps etc. Many more pictures of dumps, Auction Posters etc. etc.

    Interesting what was disposed of during the war, not just after.

    Might be worth your while looking up the UNRRA postwar relief efforts - a vast amount of transport was turned over to them pretty much as soon as the war ended. The putative NATO's Military Assistance Programmes might get results as well.

    If you haven't got them, I could possibly scan the relevant issues for you.
     
  5. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    Roddy - as for softskins of all types...they went all over the place; for an idea of where, take a look at CMV or one of the other monthly mags. The British stuff I know wa sold off really really cheaply postwar; one deal I read recently was a man who bought British Army trucks at £10 a dozen and cut them down to make farm trailers!!! :lol: Again take a look at some of the threads about re-used vehicles on the board, but the monthlies and their picture pages are your best source ;)

    Farmers ALSO loved Tillies.....

    The Terrapin amphibians that survived the war were regarded as failures; within a few years those that were left were used for flood relief in the UK on one occasion by the Army...and soon after that dumped at sea in an attempt to create a flood barrier!
     
  6. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    The motorcycles...

    Now THAT'S another case entirely! Several large civilian outlets like Pride&Clark's in London had contracts for punting out WD machines after they were "civilianised" - basically - a service, a black paintbrush run over the frame, and a green or blue brush over the tank and mudguards!

    In the era before the invention of the practical light car - motorcycles moved the masses, and especially in immediately postwar but still rationed Britain, there was a pretty large market for these! That's why there are SO many still running...
     
  7. phylo_roadking

    phylo_roadking Very Senior Member

    P.S. it's worth remembering too that the postwar British Army also KEPT a huge number of vehicles and used then out; as late as the early 1960s for example, AEC Matadors were still being used by mobile field radar units and others in Germany...
     
  8. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Cover-1ssue-#55.jpg

    Boblingen & Butzbach dumps - gives an idea of the scale of the disposal effort (Keep clicking to zoom in):
    Boblingen-dump.jpg

    Couple of Auction Adverts (second massive one as late as 1969):
    Advertisements.jpg

    And Catalogues:
    canadian-auction.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  9. DaveB

    DaveB Very Senior Member

    It was only the other day that I looked up details on the T-16 Carriers and other WW2 surplus vehicles still possibly in military hands in Myanmar (Burma). Unfortunately I can't access the reference in Jane's archive from home (I have access via my work system) but it refers to the universal carriers being used as recently as 1988 to break up protesters.


    From Wiki -

    Directorate of Armour

    No.1 Armour Company and No.2 Armour Company was formed in July 1950 under the Directorate of Armour and Artillery Corps with Sherman tanks, Stuart Light Tanks, Humber Amour Scout Cars, Ferret Armoured Cars and Univerl Bren Carriers. These two companies were merged on 1 November 1950 to become No. 1 Armour Battalion with Headquarter in Mingalardon.

    On 15 May 1952 No. Tank Battalion was formed with 25 Comet Tanks acquired from United Kingdom.

    The Armour Corps within Myanmar Army was the most neglected one for nearly thirty years since the Tatmadaw did not procure any new tanks or armour carriers since 1961.



    (Now that the Spitfire bloke has made inroads to the ruling party over there, maybe someone should see about getting some of these procured and exported. Surely they can be swapped for something that the country can use.)


    (Woops - a bit of Googling seems to indicate that many of these vehicles may have been flogged off to China as scrap metal over the last decade or so)
     
  10. Roddy1011

    Roddy1011 Senior Member

    Gentlemen -

    And there was I thinking this would be a difficult one ! Thank you so much - massive amount of info to digest but I still have a number of challenges...

    - Are there any TNA Files on all this ? Do other establishments have anything ?
    - Are there any T-Number census listings of the vehicles that were disposed of ?
    - Is there any info as to what details other national archives contain ?

    Thank you again

    Roddy
     
  11. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Some hints on who dealt with what here, 1948.

    23 June 1948 Reference: CAB 129/28/10


    • Record Type: Memorandum Former Reference: CP (48) 160 Title: Scrap Investigation Committee: Final Report. Author: George R Strauss
    • Date: 23 June 1948
    The Problem of Surpluses
    52. Military surpluses comprise those stocks held by the Services which are
    in excess of the authorised scales for maintenance and reserves. To ascertain
    what those should be, calculations have to be applied to a vast number of items,
    the bulk of which, however, will not produce much scrap. Considerable quantities
    of the major scrap-yielding surpluses have already been declared and the process
    is proceeding apace. The Committee are convinced that the problem is less one
    of declaration than of—(
    a) segregation and clearance of surpluses from depots; and
    (b) where. breakdown is necessary, an adequately equipped organisation of
    sufficient size to deal expeditiously with the surpluses.
    Shortage of man-power has been a major cause of delay at all stages in obtaining
    the full flow of scrap from defence services surpluses. This will be discussed in
    more detail later on.
    The Handling of Surpluses after Declaration
    53. Stores declared surplus by the Defence Services are handed over to the
    Disposals Directorate of the Ministry of Supply, who normally sell re-usable items
    and arrange breakdown of stores which it is decided cannot or should not be.
    disposed of commercially. Ferrous scrap arising from Government surpluses is
    handed over to Iron and Steel Disposals, Ltd., who sell it to the consumer, or, if
    it requires further sorting or treatment before use in the furnaces, to scrap
    merchants.
    Sales of Surpluses
    54. In the past, where stores were to be re-sold, a certain time has sometimes
    elapsed while the market was being tested. This has to a certain extent militated
    against timely scrap availability. While the Committee do not criticise the
    holding of sales, nor suggest that the process has been unduly slow, they have
    suggested in their Second Interim Report that an examination should be made
    to determine whether in the new circumstances of the enhanced need for scrap a
    correct balance is being struck between the advantage of sales, with attendant
    delays, and the scrap requirements of the steel industry.
    Types of Stores
    55. The Committee have concentrated their attention on the categories of
    Defence Services stores likely to yield substantial quantities of scrap. These
    are :—
    Ammunition.
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles and Bren Gun Carriers, plus derivatives
    in the form of spare parts.
    Machine Tools.
    Artillery Equipments.
    Certain categories of Engineer and other Stores.
    A mmunition
    56. The quantity of surplus ammunition still to be broken down is about
    500,000 tons, with an estimated scrap yield of 200,000 tons. The limiting factor
    in obtaining scrap from this source is the process of emptying, the capacity for
    which cannot readily be expanded. The completion of the programme will' take
    about two years. After reviewing all the circumstances, the Committee regard
    this as a situation which must be accepted.
    Included in the present emptying programme are considerable quantities of
    R.A.F. bombs, which will subsequently be refilled and put back into reserve.
    Should this part of the programme be deferred until the scrap-yielding surplus
    ammunition has been dealt with, the effect would be to raise the total scrap from
    this source in 1948 from 80-90,000 tons to about 100,000. The Committee feelthat
    this would be a worth-while contribution and suggest that the Air Ministrv
    be invited to consider the matter. There should thus be a vield of 100.000 tons
    of scrap from this source in 1948 and a further 100,000 in the following year.
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles and Bren Carriers
    57. Although a considerable percentage of Armoured Fighting Vehicles
    and Bren Carriers declared surplus by the War Office is situated abroad, there
    remain at home quantities which justify special measures for disposal. Thus the
    War Office have declared 14,000 Bren Carriers surplus, of which about 9,000 are
    in home depots.
    The problem is thus threefold :—
    (a) The selection of surplus vehicles from those which are to be retained.
    This is an inspection problem and it is evident that inspection resources
    could be expanded to advantage, but the Army may need some
    assistance in this respect.
    (b) Movement of the surplus vehicles from the Army to the Ministry of
    Supply depots. The delaying factors are shortage of drivers and, in
    the case of the heavier vehicles, of railway flats.
    (c) Breakdown at the Ministry of Supply depots.
    The present facilities for tank breakdown suffice for about 320 per month,
    jln keeping with the principle of obtaining maximum results in 1948, the Comjmittee
    asked the Ministry of Supply what would be involved in increasing the
    Ibreakdown capacitj^ to 500 tanks and 1,000 Bren carriers per month. The
    [answer is that this rate could be achieved in a few months, subject to buildingup
    a pool at the Ministry of Supply depots of some 1,500 tanks and 3,000 Bren
    Carriers, so that a line of operations can be established, as opposed to a process
    involving individual vehicles. In addition, certain increases in man-power would
    be necessary. These will be discussed later, since such increases will produce
    maximum results only when applied to an acceleration of yield over the whole
    field of breakdown. Unfortunately, shortage of transport facilities make it
    by no means an easy matter to create a large pool of vehicles at the Ministry of
    Supply depots. It is for consideration whether, whilst utilising transportation
    facilities to the full, part of the breakdown might be carried out to advantage
    at the Army Depots.
    The Committee are aware that the Departments concerned are already in
    consultation over the matter. So important do they regard the expeditious
    handling of this type of surpluses, which is so lucrative in scrap yield, that they
    suggest the War Office and the Ministry of Supply be invited to take concerted
    measures to increase the present monthly breakdown rate to 500 tanks and 1,000
    Bren Carriers and that any demand for increased facilities required in
    furtherance of this object should be afforded sympathetic support by those
    concerned.


    Searching various combinations of these agencies appears to head in the right sort of direction:
    'Disposals Directorate of the Ministry of Supply'
    'Disposals Group of the control commission for Germany'
    'Scrap Export agency'
     
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Few details of the Ruddington sales on the Moggy Minor Owners club:
    Ex-Government Fleet Minors Register
    The auctions were conducted by Messrs Walker, Walton, Hanson of Nottingham and although most lots went to the Trade, it was possible for private bidders to make purchases. Many Crown vehicles went through these auctions and this explains the diverse range of Government Department vehicles which were available. Most were sold to specialist dealers who subsequently sold to the public.
    Some ex-BAOR vehicles were bought by dealers at the port of entry e.g. Hull. [FONT=&quot]BAOR vehicles were sold at Munchengladbach and Hamm. Other overseas based vehicles were disposed of at the relevant location.
    [/FONT]Auctions also took place at other sites e.g. the Forestry Commission Facility at Chirk. Although some BAOR vehicles found their way back to the UK, many were disposed of abroad, hence the large number of Morris Minors to be found in Holland and Germany.

    Each vehicle was sold with an Auction Release Note and, in the case of Military Vehicles, this document is necessary for establishing its military identity in the event of the Military Registration Number not being marked on it (e.g RAF and RN vehicles). This document was given to the local licensing office when the vehicle was first registered and may or may not be still available.



    NA reference:
    Walker, Walton & Hanson, auctioneers and valuers GB/NNAF/C205584
    Location of Related Collections : Nottinghamshire Archives
    Scope 1876-1980: valuation books and registers
    RepositoryRecord Reference7261
     
  13. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    I wish you luck with your search Roddy. I've not become aware of any retained documents relating to immediate post-war sale / disposal. Unfortunately, the post-war 'Key Cards' only start around 1948, when the new registration system was introduced and they do include some details of disposal subsequent to that but the whole operation seems to have been one of accepting that no-one knew where vast quantities of equipment had ended up and they wanted to start with a clean sheet.

    My particular interest is motorcycles and they were probably less documented than armour. There was almost no control over friendly nations taking on unwanted inventory.

    I've read an account of the Dutch forces, immediately on the end of hostilities, driving with a convoy of trucks to the vehicle depots in Northern France and loading them up with as many BSA M20s as they could fit. There were no checks on census number etc. and they simply took the most complete examples.

    A large number of matching, late production (1945) engine and frame number Ariel W/NGs and Norton 16Hs still exist in Norway which suggest that they must have been supplied direct from Royal Ordnance Chilwell somewhere in the period 1946 - 48 but I have seen no trace of UK documentation to support it.

    Sadly, these mass disposal records don't seem to have been thought any more worthy of retention than the original MoS demands or individual vehicle records.
     
  14. Roddy1011

    Roddy1011 Senior Member

    Rich -

    Would you possibly be interested in some lists of Candian M/Cs held on strength of various units in Canada ?

    Roddy
     
  15. zemsi

    zemsi Junior Member

    Hello

    I've just spotted this interesting thread. Switzerland hasn't been mentioned before. However, the Swiss bought a lot of surplus vehicles of american origine.

    Dodge WC and CC (either 1/2 or 3/4t, and even 10 x 1,5t), GMCs short and long wheelbase, Ward La-France/Kenworth and Diamond Wreckers, a handful halftracks, Universal Carriers T16, Staghounds, Jeeps, a handful Chevrolet Bomb Trucks, Weasels, Ford and Chevy Canada (3t).

    Read more here. And here you can read about the T16s. And last but not least some surplus auctions in the late 70ies.

    In Issue 55 of the Wheels&Tracks magazine you will find more information: Issue 55: Special Issue, Surplus & Disposals - US Vehicles of WWII - Canadian Disposals & Returns - The Dutch Inheritance - Holland's Vehicle parks

    Hope that helps...

    Greetings
    zemsi
     
  16. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Another question thats been kicking around in my head for a while.

    Im thinking about British vehicles here, but it relates to all nations of course.
    At the end of the war, there must of been a vast number of vehicles of all descriptions many miles away from the UK. I would imagine there were lots in some very inaccessable places. Was there a policy on what to do with these vehicles? In some cases, was it just uneconomical to transport certain, old, worn out, or battle damaged vehicles all the way back home? What was done with these vehicles, did the local situation require them to be rendered unusable? How long did it take to get some of these vehicles back to the UK, or were many, for example, left strategically in Europe due to the uncertain future?
     
  17. Recce_Mitch

    Recce_Mitch Very Senior Member

    One of the best example of what happened to military equipment although not British occured in Vanautu at what is now dubbed Million Dollar Point where the Americans bulldozed the Equipment into the Sea after the local Government refused to pay vastly reduced rates for the equipment thinking that the US would just leave the equipment and they would get it for free. That was a very bad choice.

    Million Dollar Point, Vanuatu

    http://www.michaelmcfadyenscuba.info/viewpage.php?page_id=38

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  18. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Some years ago there was a series of articles in 'Wheels and Tracks' magazine which dealt with exactly this subject, although mainly with regard to Europe. In outline:
    The Allies kept the best.
    A great many were handed over to friendly nations. Belgium got British vehicles, Netherlands got Canadian vehicles etc.
    A great many overseas were handed over to UN relief organisations which distributed them amongst nations needing them.
    The rest were sold off at auctions.

    I will see if I can find the references for Wheels and Tracks if you are interested in the detail.

    Mike
     
  19. Belgian Dave

    Belgian Dave Well-Known Member

    Paul - Maybe the local government make something now from the divers?

    Mike - That would be interesting. Funny you say about Belgium getting British vehicles. My local fire station has a restored K2 which I think may have been an ambulance, but then converted to a fire vehicle. I have also seen a Dutch fire brigade with a restored QL, which has been converted to a water tender.
     
  20. Trux

    Trux 21 AG

    Several references. I have actually looked in the relevant issues and added comments.

    Wheels and Tracks.
    No 18. GM Continental. Post war refurbishing surplus vehicles. A couple of relevant pages with photos.
    No 21. Ford of Belgium - the Post War Years. Much as above.
    No 38. Trucks for Albania and Yugoslavia. Vehicles provided by UNRRA.
    No 55. Special Issue - Surplus and Disposals. Contains:
    British War Spoils ans Surplus.
    US Surplus Vehicles.
    Canadian Disposals and Returns.
    Hollands Vehicle Parks. This was where most surplus vehicles ended up.
    No 56 and No 57. Surplus MVs for UNRRA Parts 1 and 2.

    Rail locomotives were also handed over to governments in many parts of the world.

    Mike.
     

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