Royal Tank Regiment, R.A.C. 12th casualties around Ancona, September 1944

Discussion in 'Italy' started by jives11, Sep 9, 2013.

  1. jives11

    jives11 Junior Member

    greetings, My cousins Grandfather was killed while serving with the Royal Tank Regiment in Italy 1944. he is buried at Ancona War Cemetary.

    the CWGC entry reads :


    ROBINSON, GEORGE FREDERICK

    Rank:

    Lance Corporal

    Service No:

    7932200

    Date of Death:

    10/09/1944

    Age:

    33

    Regiment/Service:

    Royal Tank Regiment, R.A.C.



    12th

    Grave Reference

    II. D. 9.

    Cemetery

    ANCONA WAR CEMETERY




    My cousin asked if I could find any information regarding the action that hs Grandfather was killed in. It is believed he may have died several days after being mortally wounded so this would be tank Actions around the 7th or 8th September. it is also believed that he was part of a Churchill Tank crew

    I have done a degree of research for relatives who served with the RAF, but am unsure what resources are available for the Royal Tank Regiment.

    Any pointers or assitance would be gratefully received

    many thanks
     
  2. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Send off for Service Records from MoD.
    https://www.gov.uk/requests-for-personal-data-and-service-records#service-records-of-deceased-service-personnel

    Also go to National Archives to see War Diary.
    http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/s/res?_q=WO%20170%2F858
    12 Royal Tank Regiment
    • Date range: 01 January 1944 - 31 December 1944
    • Reference:WO 170/858
    Yes they did use Churchills.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21st_Army_Tank_Brigade

    Veteran member Tom Canning was in the same brigade.
    I'm sure he'll add to this thread.
     
  3. jives11

    jives11 Junior Member

    Thanks Owen for such a rapid and useful reply. I've gone to the national Archives link you supplied and ordered a quote to get the 12th's War Diary for early September 1944.

    Looking at dates it looks possible he was killed during the fighting at Gemmano, the dates of Early September and the high casualties on both side would seem a possibility.
     
  4. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    TNA' s quotes are very pricey, lots of members on here have used the services of Andy aka Drew5233 & Lee aka PsyWar.org who copy war diaries for a fraction on the price.
     
  5. 4jonboy

    4jonboy Daughter of a 56 Recce

    Hello jives

    By all means get a quote from the National Archives but I will guarantee their prices are very high. There are a couple of members on this forum who copy war diaries for a fraction of the cost if you are interested. Just get in touch with either PsyWar.org (Lee) or Drew5233 (Andy)-they have copied many war diaries for members on here.

    Lesley

    Edit: Oops, sorry didn't see Owen's reply in post 4
     
  6. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jives

    whilest it is easy to assume that he was killed at Gemmano as this was a very BIG battle - fact is the 12RTR were about a mile to the East of Gemmano and it was 56th Div which was being

    thumped there while 46th Div were being thumped another mile to the West.....the Canadian 5th AD were dealing with the village of Coriano....and the Canadian 1st Div - supported by the 21st TB -

    which included 12thRTR - 48thRTR and 145TH RAC were dealing with San Martino as of around the 8th September.....and we were still dealing with that little town until the 17th......

    we had come to a screeching halt on the 3rd September after a good 15 miles run from Pieve and had been hoping to enter Rimini that afternoon - it was not to be as Kesselring had finally woken up

    to the fact that we were being serious and he then sent in his best corps of 1st Paras - 26th Pz's and 29th PzGrens which put the kybosh on anything happening for a while..12RTR were supporting

    the Loyal Edmontons of 2nd Bde of 1st Cdn in relieving 48th RTR and were coming up to near San Martino when they ran into some trouble and 3 men were KIA and another 1 OR wounded - their

    diary is bit sketchy at this point for 7-8-9th September with too many codes words etc - but they were being heavily shelled

    Hope this helps

    Cheers
     
  7. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jives

    as a PS to my above posting - at that time there were few Tank vs Tank battles going on as their main defences were the dug in Panzersturms on high ground - these were dug in Panther PzMkV

    Turrets with special 19foot long barrel 75mm's guns which were extremely hard to see plus their Artillery all along what we called "Bloody Coriano Ridge" which stretched from Croce in the West

    to San Fortunato - near Rimini on the coast......it is probable that he was wounded and taken to the CCS at Ancona where he died and was buried there as - at that time there were cemeteries at

    Montecchio and Gradara as well as the one at Ancona CCS Hospital - I spent some time at the CCS prior to being shipped down to Bari then Catania in Sicily to be patched up - we lost 306 KIA's in

    that 28 days battles - which was heavy for a small Tank brigade of about 65% of the Tank crews - but difficult to confirm as even our Sergeant Cook was wounded and an "A" echelon Jeep was

    blown up with four men KIA

    Cheers
     
  8. jives11

    jives11 Junior Member

    <p>many thanks Tom ,Lesley &amp; Owen for such helpful and immediate replies. This will be very interesting to my cousin who knows where his Grandfather was buried but has little knoweldge about the circumstances and the action he was involved in. Once again , many thanks, its really appreciated.</p>
     
    Owen likes this.
  9. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Hi,

    By chance I am presently working on transcribing 12 RTR war diaries for the Churchill project. I will read back from September 10th and post what has been found.

    Gerry
     
  10. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Well done Gerry - am currently sorting out a posting of a casualty of 12th RTR at the Coriano Ridge

    but my copy of their diary is full of code names and map references which don't make too much sense as I know they were near us at San Martino

    Cheers
    Tom
     
  11. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Jives11

    Just been informed that Gerry Chester is working on the 12th RTR War Diary at this time and is already up to the 10th September '44 - so he might be on later to give a synopsis of the events

    leading to the death of the grandfather.....Gerry was also there at that time with - I think 46th Div with 25th Tank Bde of NIH - 51st RTR and 142 RAC - as was the 7th AB with 2nd - 6th and 8th RTR

    with 2nd AB from 1st AD supporting 56th Div.....so there was a lot of activity at that time..and why we lost 14.000 KIA's in less than a month

    Cheers
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Look forward to seeing them Gerry.
    I've moved your & Tom's posts from an unrelated thread to this one. :)
     
  13. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    By chance I am currently working (spasmodically) on 12th RTR war diaries as part of the Churchill project. As evidenced, your uncle was wounded during the assualt on the Gothic Line, transferred to the British Hospital in Ancona,

    See:

    Bn strength: 39 Officers and 649 ORs (mci attd).
    6th 0900 Orders received to move immediately to area SOUTH of FOLIGNO.
    1230 Road party departs.
    1600 Tanks already arrived in SIENA area concentrated in Bde Harbour preparatory to move.
    2100 Main body arrives at new area. Location of RHQ Sheet 131 II 949686.

    Italy 1/50,000 131 II 949686 FOLIGNO area
    7th
    Tanks commence arriving.

    8th
    Main Transporter party arrives from SIENA. Brigadier visits Bn and stays to lunch.

    9th
    Arrival of Rear party from PRESENZANO.

    12th
    Bn strength: 38 Officers (mci Padre, EME and 2 Lts). 629 ORs (mci REME att’d).

    14th
    Bn receives Warning Order to move to area BELVEDERE Sheet 117 1/100,000 3937.

    15th
    CO receives details of plan of attack on GOTEN Line [sic]. Advance Party under Major R Coombes departs for new location

    16th
    Lt.Gen Oliver Leese, commanding 8th Army, visits HQ 21 Tank Bde. He is introduced to all commanding officers and later gives a 20 minute talk to representative parties of all units. This Bn was represented by 37 Officers and 100 ORs.

    17th
    CO visits 1 CdnlnfBde.

    18th
    RHQ, ‘A’ and HQ Sqns depart to new location - route FOLIGNO, FABRIANO.
    1800 hrs
    TAC HQ established at Map Ref 270461 Sht 117 1/100,000.

    Italy 1/100,000 BELVEDERE area Sheet 117 270461.
    19th
    Bn strength: 37 Officers (inc Padre, EME and 2 Lts). 644 ORs (inc REME att’d).
    1400 hrs
    ‘B’, ‘C’ Sqn wheeled columns arrive.

    20th
    1700 hrs
    CO attends conference at 21 Tank Bde. Bn to be ready to move to fwd Conc area SOUTH of R METAURO on night 22/23 Aug.
    1900 hrs
    Col Hamilton Russell, Brig-Gen Calder, 1 C.I.B. visit BHQ and stay to dinner.
    2330 hrs
    Tank column arrives. Concentration now completed.

    21st
    1430 hrs Recce party departs to recce new fwd conc area at S.l539.
    1600 hrs
    CO, 21/c attended Order Group at 1 C.I.B.
    2000 hrs
    Recce party returns (area still in German hands).
    2130 hrs CO gives details of plan to OCs Sqns.

    22nd
    1500 hrs
    CO attends conference at 1 C.1.B. Bn now to move to fwd conc area night of 24/25 Aug.

    23rd hrs
    CO informs all ranks of the general plan of the coming operations in Italy and details of 1 Cdn Corps plan.
    1700 hrs Bde Comdr addresses all Officers.

    24th
    0900 hrs
    Recce party departs to forward conc area, map ref 1/100,000 Sheet 110 187545.
    1500 hrs
    CO attends Orders for Operation ‘OLIVE’ at HQ 1 Cdn InfBde.
    2000 hrs
    CO holds O Group for ‘OLIVE’.
    2300 - 2400 hrs
    Tanks arrive at forward conc. area.

    1/100,000 Sheet 110 187545 ORCIANO area
    25th
    0500 hrs
    ‘B’ vehicles reach conc. area.
    During the day Sqn Ldrs go to forward OP to look over ground upon which first stages of
    Operation ‘OLIVE’ are to take place. Approach roads to OP under enemy shell fire.
    1830 hrs
    CO holds final co-ord conference.
    2300 hrs
    1 Cdn Inf Bde attack over R Metauro. Object to secure crossings and bridgehead for tanks.

    26th
    0010 hrs
    Bn moved out of harbour at 187545 in support of 1 Cdn lnfBde.
    0800 hrs
    ‘A’ and ‘B’ Sqns across river also BHQ tanks. ‘C’ Sqn held up at B crossing.
    1000 hrs
    ‘C’ Sqn diverted to A crossing.

    ‘CARMINE’ 1/100,000 Sheet 109 S 107644
    26th
    1200 hrs
    ‘A’, ‘B’ and HQ tanks hull down in area CARMINE. ‘C’ Sqn still south of SALTARA trying to contact Royal Cdn Regt about 132632.
    1300 hrs
    ‘A’ Sqn advance down slope from codename BARRACK, S 112464 in support of 48 Highianders for attack on hill feature area 098662.
    1330 hrs
    Recce carried out by CO, with CO of Hastings and Prince Edward Regt and OC ‘B’ Sqn for move round right flank. Comd of M10 Bty was wounded during this recce from BARRACK.
    A2 Ech moves forward across river 122634.
    1400 hrs
    Advance by Hastings and PE Regt and ‘B’ Sqn on right of’A’ Sqn.
    1700 hrs
    ‘C’ Sqn contact Hast and PER.
    1800 hrs
    All three Sqns with infantry on Inf Bde’s orders advance up slope in area BLOOMFIELD
    098662.
    1900 hrs
    InfBde Comd orders for Inf to consolidate N of BLOOMFIELD. Tanks to rally back to harbour.
    2000 hrs
    Orders to Sqns to harbour.
    Bn strength: 37 Officers, 644 ORs (inc. att’d)

    27th
    0030 hrs
    All Sqns in harbour. CO’s orders: Advance to contact infantry where left the night before. Enemy shelling roads south of harbour, difficulties in getting through petrol supplies to tanks.
    0430 hrs
    Sqns clear of harbour. ‘C’ Sqn left, ‘B’ right, ‘A’ Sqn in reserve.
    0500 hrs
    BHQ moves back to BARRACK.
    0700 hrs
    CO contacts 21C and with Inf Bde Comd goes up NW of CARTOCETO to M.ALTIERO.
    0900 hrs
    CO, 21C and lnf Bde Comd move to CORBALLIS S 083674.
    1100 hrs
    InfBde Comds orders: RCR to move on spurs to flank both sides of MOMBAROCCIO.
    48 Highlanders and Hast and PER moving on SPUD axis NE of MOMBAROCCIO.
    CO’s orders to Sqns - ‘B’ Sqn supported by ‘C’ Sqn to move on SPUD axis. ‘B’ and ‘C’ Sqns to contact Inf and support forward. ‘A’ Sqn in reserve at ‘CORBALLIS’, ordered to move in support of ‘B and ‘C’ at 1330 hrs from behind SPUD. 48 Highlanders, Hast and PER, ‘B’ and ‘C’ Sqns advance on axis ‘CONSOLE’ - ‘SPUD’.
    1700 hrs
    BHQ moved from ‘CORBALLIS’ to ‘CONSOLE’ S 087682. ‘B’ Sqn in support 48
    Highlanders reach ‘EDGEWORTH’ 5 073705. Advance continues down towards River Arzilla in
    support of infantry. Two tanks hit.
    2030 hrs
    Bde Comd’s orders at ‘SPUD’ –
    (i) Infantry to do night attack to get Pt.248 and forward bridgehead
    (ii) Tanks to harbour back, Guides to be on river crossing by first light
    (iii) Tanks to be on river at first light.
    2330 hrs
    Tanks in harbour
    .
    28th
    0315 hrs
    CO’s orders. Bn to move at 0530 hrs, ‘B’ Sqn to stay behind.
    0530 hrs
    Move out to R Arzilla - order of march ‘A’, ‘C’ and HQ.
    0615 hrs
    Bn halted at S 075694. CO goes forward for recce. Heavy mortaring in S VITO. OC RCR contacted, who said 48 Hldrs needed tank support. CO and OC ‘A’ Sqn went forward and contacted CO Hast and PER who had a few men over the river. Attack prepared -
    (i) Hast and PER to advance over the river to Pt.268 supported by ‘A’ Sqn, ‘C’ Sqn and SP Bty who were to take up hull down positions on ridge at 5 072697
    (ii) ‘A’ Sqn to work forward down slope and try to cross river. 0645 ‘A’ Sqn, heavily engaged, had to be withdrawn.
    1100 hrs
    CO contacted OC 48 Hldrs Position - one coy cut off across river. One in village 069716. One coy in reserve in area RHQ S074713. Appreciation - both COs. Result - Bde Comd asked to come forward and see situation.
    1500 hrs
    InfBde Comd O Group at Bde HQ 5076694.
    1500 - 1545 hrs
    Result of O Group at Inf Bde HQ -
    (i) Orders Royal Cdn Regt and Hasts and PER to capture GINESTRETO.
    (ii) 48 l-lldrs with in support 12 R Tanks to cross R Arzilla and capture Pts.146 and 162. H hr 1730 hrs.
    A large part of tanks in Bn ‘off the road’ owing to rough going. Decision by CO to form composite Sqn under command Major J Cornwell DCM.
    CO’s preliminary instr on wireless.
    CO and OC B Sqn to HQ 48 Highlanders. Recce and plan -
    (a) Coy Comd to go forward in tank to village.
    (b ) Force to move on 146 and thence to 162.
    (c) Decision to apply for H hr to be one hour later. Bde comd agreed.
    (d) Coy 48 Hldrs picked up by Sqn on way down the slope in village.
    1830 hrs
    Attack started - was successful.

    29th
    0400 hrs Composite Sqn withdrew.
    OC A Sqn with three tanks and troop of Ml O’s to cover withdrawal from ridge overlooking river.

    30th-31st
    Bn nd Echelons in harbour south of River Arzilla.
    Battle casualties up to end of month: 2 ORs killed, 2 Officers and 18 ORs wounded.

    South of River Arzilla S 073696
    September 1944

    1st
    1400 hrs
    CO goes for orders to HQ 2 Cdn InfBde.
    Warning order to support Loyal Edmonton Regt in advance through GOTHIC LINE and on to MONTELURO feature SO 180.
    1900 hrs
    Bn tanks with LER moved from S 056732 across R Foglia through GOTHIC LINE to position behind ridge at SO 16782. Attack on MONTELURO to go in at earliest.

    2nd
    1330 hrs
    CO with CO LER, 10 and OC 24 Fd Regt RA go forward for recce on ‘AVONDALE’ SO 16782. Bn hull down SOUTH of this feature.
    1500 hrs
    Orders to Sqn Comds for attack on ‘BAUNBOY’ and Monteluro -
    (a) Recce Tp under Lt G N Williams to move at once - recce crossings over creek S0278 - 0178 and thence move on right to establish ‘PINK FARM’ and ‘UNNAMED FARM’.
    (b )‘A’ Sqn with one coy LER to move forward to ‘WHITE HOUSE’ - ‘BAUNBOY’ clump.
    (c) ‘C’ Sqn to support with one coy infantry from ‘AVONDALE’ and move thence to CLUMP passing through A Sqn and on to MONTELURO.
    (d) ‘b’ Sqn to be in reserve giving fire support.
    (e) Artillery and air concentrations at call. 1730 Hhr.
    2030 hrs
    Attack had gone well. All objectives captured. ‘C’ Sqn on MONTELURO, ‘A’ Sqn at CLUMP. During action, Recce Tp destroyed an 88mm A/Tk gun and captured 11 prisoners.
    Lt J K Black 10 was wounded and evacuated to MDS.
    2400 hrs
    Tanks in harbour with LER at area MONTELURO.
    Bn strength: 36 Officers (inc Padre, RMO and EME att), 627 ORs (inc RCS, ACC and REME att).
    Lt H J Sharpe wounded and evacuated.

    MONTELURO S0181
    3rd
    0300 hrs
    Regt warned to move at first light with LER. Axis ‘BOBSVILLE’ - ‘BUNGLASS’ - ‘BADAJIZ’ - ‘CALVARY’ - ‘CALLOW’ - Fanano S9984. Order of march: B Sqn with under command Recce Tp, A Sqn, RHQ, C Sqn. Infantry carried on tanks.
    0600 hrs
    Move begins. Very heavy mortaring and shelling on tanks. B Sqn attack and capture area ‘BOBSVILLE’ and ‘BADAJIZ’. Strong opposition from ‘CALVARY’ and ‘CALLOW’.
    1200 hrs
    CO after conference with CO LER decides to establish a firm base in area ‘BADAJIZ’.
    1300 hrs
    Recce for attack on ‘CALLOW’. CO slightly wounded.
    1500 hrs
    Orders for attack on ‘CALLOW’. ‘A’ and ‘C’ Sqns to support LER. ‘B’ Sqn in reserve.
    1730 hrs
    H hr. Artillery and RAF concentrations.
    1915 hrs
    Objective captured - consolidation. Regt harbours with LER at ‘CALLOW’.
     
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  14. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen

    can you now move Gerry's posting from the Fusilier saga to this thread - as it is obviously on the wrong thread

    Cheers
     
  15. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Done, Gerry's transcript is now post #13 on this thread.
     
    dbf likes this.
  16. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen
    thank you for that - however Gerry's synopsis finishes a few days before the vital action which led to the death of the initial postings subject at the 10th September - and I am sure we shall hear more from Gerry very shortly

    Cheers
     
  17. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Owen

    Thank you for that......I note that Gerry's synopsis ends prior to the relevant dates of the initial posters request for the actions from 7- 10th September so we shall be reading more from Gerry shortly no doubt - to clarify: -

    the 12thRTR mainly supported the LER = Loyal Edmonton Regiment...the 48th RTR mainly supported the PPCLI = Princes Patricia's Cdn Light Infantry regiment from Calgary..whereas we in145th RAC mainly supported the Seaforth

    Highlanders from Vancouver- all three Infantry units representing both B.C. and Alberta in Western Canada....now and again we were called on to support various units from 1st and 3rd bdes representing the Maritimes and Central Canada

    Cheers
     
  18. Gerry Chester

    Gerry Chester WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Tom here is he next page.
    That the death occurred on the 10th while in Ancona British Hospital its content isn't really relevent - however found a couple of typos so it was worth digging it out.

    Cheers.

    Thanks to you for pointing out I had posted the originals in the wrong forum.

    That's why I'm an old rascal, Gerry
     
  19. Tom Canning

    Tom Canning WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Gerry

    No need of an explanation - we all know you are an OLD rascal - the date is important as the original poster was under the impression that the wounds were made at Gemmano when we were no where near there - on the 15th - 12thRtr

    had some casualties from the south end of the Rimini Airfield which caused us to end our two day rest at Cattolica and head back to San Martino - where I bought it on the 17th..so where's the next page ?

    Cheers
    Tom
     
  20. jives11

    jives11 Junior Member

    Many Thanks Gerry and Tom. yes - the Gemmano reference is bogus, and was simply my foolish speculation. Its quite hard to decipher where a regiment of the RTR served in terms of Brigades, Divisions etc and I simply looked at the time line of the whole Gothic Campaign. Gemmano gets a mention on the pages I'd read and so I put 2 and 2 together and got 5. Thanks for putting me straight - the 12th RTR were not at Gemmano but fighting in Actions around San Martino during the specified time period i.e up to 10th September.

    I think thats right - I'm trying to understand these diaries . Spent most of the last 8 years reading RAF Bomber command Squadron ORB's which use their own peculiar abbreviated syntax.

    Thank you again for your considerable assitance on this matter
     

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