Royal Navy Officer at a Funeral in Germany- Picture Mystery

Discussion in 'Searching for Someone & Military Genealogy' started by MTG, Feb 3, 2021.

  1. MTG

    MTG Member

    Hello Everyone!

    I am trying to solve a picture mystery concerning the identity of, I assume, a captain of the Royal Navy and the location of buried servicemen. Alas, I only have four images to go off of and am trying to connect clues from the pictures with my grandfather's service record. My hope is to identify either the location or the identity of the Royal Navy officer to give me a chance to unravel this mystery. The end goal is to touch base with the CWGC to make sure the buried servicemen have been identified, located, reburied, etc.

    My own thoughts are below but I defer to the collective minds of this forum who are far more versed in WWII knowledge than I am.

    Here is the story:

    My grandfather served during WWII as an officer in the German Luftwaffe (flak artillery). He survived the war having earned the Iron Cross (first class), Luftwaffe Ground Assault badge, Anti-Aircraft Flak Battle badge and Wound badge (black). His service record is mostly intact and gives me a solid timeline of his locations and promotions during the war years. The images below were in his private collection.

    • My grandfather leading an honor guard of Luftwaffe troops. This is also the only image with a note on the back that simply reads: “On the march to the burial of the ‘Tommies’ ”.
    [​IMG]
    Image 1
    • The honor guard at what appears to be a cemetery. The Royal Navy officer that I hope to identify is standing to the right facing away from the camera. While I can make out “Marie” on the black gravestone on the left of the image, the last name is frustratingly blurred.
    [​IMG]
    Image 2
    • A view of the chaplains/ clergy, German soldiers, and Royal Navy officers. The large mound of overturned earth leads me to suspect that this was a larger burial.
    [​IMG]
    Image 3
    • The key image, in my opinion. From what I can tell, the officer saluting in the middle is from the Royal Navy with the rank of captain.
    [​IMG]
    Image 4
    With the pictures now presented, let us look at some context clues:

    1. Based on my grandfather’s uniform in images 1 and 2, the rank on his collar indicates he is a Leutnant (2nd Lt). When consulting his service record, he was promoted to Leutnant on April 1, 1940 and received his next promotion in October 1941. That must place the event depicted in the early years of the war.
    2. The point above is reinforced by the national insignia on the helmet. The Luftwaffe was ordered to remove the national emblem from helmets in July 1940 and a rough texture was to replace the smooth metal surface on new helmets coming from the factories. All decals were ordered to be done away with in 1943 (with exceptions). In images 1 and 3, we can see smooth helmets with decals on both sides. While it is tempting to deduce that points a and b narrow the burial to a timeframe between April and July 1940, the helmets worn by the honor guard could have been ceremonial and thus not need to immediately comply with the order.
    3. If the first point is 100% correct (i.e. my eyes not deceiving me looking at his rank) and my grandfather was a Leutnant at the time, he would have served in four locations: Großenbrode, Swinemünde, Nienburg, and Hesedorf. The first two are coastal locations which would make sense with a Royal Navy presence/ burial. That does not necessarily mean that the burials took place there. Perhaps nearby? His time at these two coastal locations ranged from February 1, 1940 to May 25, 1940. Hist time at Nienburg and Hesedorf runs from May 1940 - January 1942.
    4. In terms of the terrain, there is not much I can make out. It looks like there is a lot of tall pine and in image 4, it looks like oak leaves are in the foreground. I cannot determine if image 4 has a body of water in in the top left corner (to the right of the clergyman’s head) or if that is a rooftop. I've spoken with locals living at Grosenbrode and they don't think the location was near them because of the tree density.
    5. The final observation that I can make is regarding the British officer in image 4. Based on the uniform and sleeve insignia, I believe he is a Captain in the Royal Navy. I am aware of databases that list all the officers in the Royal Navy by name but this image is all I have to go off of. A kind tip led me to search WO 416 in the National Archives but I've had little luck.

    I am happy to provide more information if needed. I look forward to any and all conversations and suggestions! Cheers.
     
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  2. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery

    Welcome to the forum and thank you for posting.
    Very interesting story you have.
    I hope the forum can help you
     
  3. Tony56

    Tony56 Member Patron

    Interesting photos. The unknown named grave in image 2 is perhaps the best bet to identify the location, presumably we are looking at scanned, and therefore pixelated photos, I assume that you have the originals? Sometimes taking a close up photo, as opposed to scanning, reveals more details.

    In image 3 there appears to be a crowd of onlookers behind the pile of earth, one with an umbrella, doesn't help at all, but it was perhaps an occasion of significance for civilians?
     
  4. Alex1975uk

    Alex1975uk Well-Known Member

    Channel Islands perhaps?
     
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  5. MTG

    MTG Member

    Thank you for the replies. This forum comes highly recommended so I look forward to the conversations.

    I do have the originals and tried to figure out the gravestone name as that could definitely help pinpoint a location. Unfortunately the last name is too blurred to make out. I've tried all sorts of name combinations but have come up empty.

    Channel Islands is an interesting thought. I see no mention of it on the service record nor do I recall any family member talking about it. Doesn't mean it didn't happen though...perhaps a visit for this event and then a return. Would that type of tree coverage have been prevalent? Having talked with some folks living at Grosenbrode, they pointed out the difference in landscape between coastal and a little further inland.

    Is anyone able to confirm that the British officer is indeed a captain and Royal Navy?
     
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  6. timuk

    timuk Well-Known Member

    Very interesting photos. The officer in Image 4 certainly looks like a Captain RN whilst the officer in Image 3 facing away is a Lieutenant Commander. Image 4 also appears to show a large number of RN Officers which tends to confirm this may be the funeral of RN Officer(s) and or Rating(s). Again in Image 4 the priest looks like RC (French/Belgium/Dutch?) whilst on the other side of the grave is what appears to be an army padre.

    Tim
     
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  7. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Just a thought:
    Your grandfather was an anti-aircraft soldier in Swindemünde.
    Between June and August 1940 Stettin was three times under attack by British bombers.
    If there were casualties, this could possibly be of further help
    regards
    Olli
     
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  8. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    If its a multiple burial its possible they are airmen or the crew of a downed aircraft. Your relative being Flak, it could be an aircraft they shot down, does he have any personal diaries or notes of the those he shot down and when ??

    In image 4 there is looking just to the right of the RN Capt a tall man in a light uniform I dont recognise - I assume he is a POW along with the other RN and RAF POW's there

    TD
     
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  9. travers1940

    travers1940 Well-Known Member

    The number of naval officers could suggest a burial party from a Marlag camp for Naval & Merchant Navy personel, rather than an Oflag.
     
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  10. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    Marlag Stettin would be a possibility.
    Either a burial for camp members or the RN members were honour guards for a downed RAF crew.
    In any case, that would explain the Luftwaffe/Flak soldiers...
     
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  11. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    The major Milag was located between Bremen and Hamburg. Hesedorf is locate between Bremen and Hamburg.

    Marlag und Milag Nord - Wikipedia
    Google Maps

    So its doubtful that a British aircraft was shot down on a bombing mission to this area much before 1941, so my thoughts are it was a bomber that was shot down during a mission to Bremen or Hamburg in 1941 or possibly 1942 dependant on when your relative was based at Hesedorf.



    TD

    From the trees and the clothing (open neck uniforms) I would also guess it was summer probably late May through to end August
     
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  12. JimHerriot

    JimHerriot Ready for Anything

    Welcome MTG,

    The cemetery has exceptionally sandy soil with very thin grass coverage which for me would place it within one or two kilometres at most of a coastline.

    A bright sunny (spring?) morning by the length of the shadows of the mourners/attendees (I'd discount an evening service as I'm sure the folks holding the keys would rather any POW were back in camp long before sundown).

    The Naval Captain (with the wreath) has ribbons that likely make him a veteran of the First World War (if we take the funeral as being conducted in spring 1940 (maybe) given the dates/timeline you've provided).

    Chap in battledress near the excavated grave looks to be a Padre.

    I'd look for a POW camp not too far from the coast from whence the mourners will have came and then returned to.

    All ifs/buts/maybes unfortunately and not much help but persevere and with the help of the good folks on this forum you'll crack it.

    Good luck, always,

    Jim.

    P.S. Folks in background behind pile of excavated earth/sandy soil in photo three are, I think, the gravediggers (with a young lad near extreme left of photo background "sloping arms" with his long handle spade on his shoulder)
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  13. ltdan

    ltdan Nietenzähler

    The Luftwaffe main ammunition depot 5/XI was located in Hesedorf.
    The Milag´s Westertimke and Tarmstedt were roughly 100km to the South
    I can find the crash of a bomber near SPRECKENS, 5 km away from Hesedorf
    Avro Lancaster II LL687 EQ-M, 7 KIA, 29 July 1944
    But that date does not match the rank of the grandfather?
    And I have my doubts as to whether at this point in the war such an effort was still being made for fallen Allied pilots.
     
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  14. MTG

    MTG Member

    Cheers folks.
    Let me provide some more info and answer some of the suggestions above.

    I don't have any reports of him downing aircraft early in the war. I do have several notes about actions from 1945 when he served in the 2.Flakstrum Rgt. Obviously not helpful for this. He spent the early war at a lot of schools either training or teaching. Here's a complete breakdown:

    Officer training course- Waffentechnische Schule Halle- 12/1/39 to 1/31/40
    Training course on Luftminen- Waffentechnische Schule Grosenbrode AND Marine Sperrzeug Amt Swinemunde- 2/1/40 to 5/25/40
    Offizier z.b.V- L.Hpt.Mun.A. Nienburg-W - 5/26/40 to 8/15/40
    Gruppenleiter- L.Hpt.Mun. Hesedorf- 8/16/40 to 1/31/42
    After that he's off to Greece, Italy, and Ukraine

    Besides his promotions, I also know he received the War Merit Cross 2nd class on 9/1/41. He doesn't seem to have that in the pictures so I'm pretty confident saying this event took place prior to that.
     
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  15. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    So this probably took place between 16th Aug 1940 and 9th Jan 1941, but that doesnt seem to fit with the state of the flora and fauna, unless it was Aug/Sept 1940 and I'm not sure how many bombing raids took place around Bremen/Hamburg whilst the Battle of Britain was in full flow

    Hmm

    TD

    https://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/med...andsociety/bombing/THE_BOMBING_OF_GERMANY.pdf

    Although bombing of Germany was continuous from May 1940, there were distinct phases in its purposes, intensity and scale. For the first eighteen months Bomber Command mounted limited attacks at night, seldom with more than 150 aircraft, often directed at two or three target cities at the same time. The attacks were made with medium bombers carrying at first mainly high explosive bombs. There were no electronic navigation aids and finding the target and hitting it with any accuracy was beyond the capability of the force. In the first phase particular industrial target systems were attacked as well as the general area of the Ruhr-Rhineland, but limited range meant that most attacks were mounted against the north German coastal ports and a cluster of iron, steel and armaments cities in Rhineland-Westphalia.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2021
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  16. Tullybrone

    Tullybrone Senior Member

    Richard,

    It may have been a “minelaying operation” in the North Sea (Baltic less likely?) than a “bombing raid” on a target on land.

    It may need the assistance of Harry Ree or alieneyes to get an idea of RAF activities.

    Steve
     
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  17. JDKR

    JDKR Member

    There are some discrepancies between images 3 and 4. The grave looks to have been filled in image 3 and where have the soldiers wearing side hats/feldmutzen in image 4 gone in image 3? Could this be two separate burial ceremonies?
     
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  18. MTG

    MTG Member

    September 1, 1941 was when he received the War Merit Cross...if that is the latter date you are referring to. That opens up the spring/summer of 1941.
     
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  19. Tricky Dicky

    Tricky Dicky Don'tre member

    Thats because I read the date as 9th Jan 1941 (British) - and its actually (in US terms) the 1st Sep 1941

    TD
     
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  20. MTG

    MTG Member

    My bad! I'll name the month moving forward.
     
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