Royal Engineers Italy-- Spr. Roberts killed by 'friendly' bomb?

Having been tipped off regarding this very interesting thread by Alien Eyes I have checked 40 Sqd Orbs obtained while investigating the loss of my uncles Wellington LP127-P in May 1944.

Wellington HE237 was operational on the night 16/17 Feb and flown by F/O L Tichborne (Aus). The plane returned safely but in the Orb Appendix (AIR27/416) the crew mentioned that the "revs on the starboard engine kept falling off".

The Sqd Orb for the following night of 17/18 Feb makes no mention of HE237 taking off - there is no entry. On all other occasions where aircraft are lost they are reported as missing. Maybe it was considered unnecessary as the squadron was fully aware of the mishap.

I can confirm that 40 sqd were operating out of Foggia Main airstrip and therefore hopefully if someone has a map of the airstrip it should be fairly easy to locate the crash site.

Collers

 

Many thanks for that, Collers. The complaints re the stbd engine by a previous crew certainly gives thought as to the cause of this crash.

For those not familiar with Collers' search re his uncle's crash:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/43751-wellington-x-lost-out-foggia-main-italy.html

I would still love to obtain the planned course for 40 Sqn's Wellingtons on this night. Unfortunately, we have not been able to narrow down just where at Kew they may be:

http://www.ww2talk.com/forum/war-air/47104-operational-flight-plans.html

Regards,

Dave

And apologies to all for this slight diversion off the main topic.

 

Not knowing much about this theatre I am staggered by the number of airfields in the 'Foggia complex'. I have been looking for anything on Foggia Main and the closest I can find are references to 'Foggia No1' or '#1'.
Link here that matches another mention I found of Celone which seems to be 'Foggia Satellite No1':
Abandoned & Little-Known Airfields: Italy, Puglia, Foggia
Any use?

 

Mike L

I can assure you that Foggia Airfield in 1943/44 - was BIG and lots of Aircraft dodging about all day and night long - I was at Lucera a few miles North and the noise was something else - mind you we helped with around 400 Churchill Tanks running around also
until Gerry Chester took his 200 Tanks into the Liri Valley

Cheers

 

Hi Tom, looking at the link I posted the whole complex was HUGE.
Not that much mention of RAF ops, there are a few though not at Celone.
Typically many of the better documented/photographed seem to be American bases (sometimes shared with RAF) but this is probably in proportion to the number of personnel.

 

Mike l

actually different roles - USAAF doing the big Bombing runs into Rumania oilfields- Austria etc

RAF AND DAF doing army cab rank support and local ie. Italian bombing runs

 

I would still love to obtain the planned course for 40 Sqn's Wellingtons on this night. Unfortunately, we have not been able to narrow down just where at Kew they may be:


Regards,

Dave


Same night, another 40sqdn aircraft lost with two Aussies on board.

RAAF FATALITIES IN SECOND WORLD WAR AMONG
RAAF PERSONNEL SERVING ON ATTACHMENT
IN ROYAL AIR FORCE SQUADRONS AND SUPPORT UNITS

Source:

AWM 237 (65) NAA : A705,166/27/359 Commonwealth War Graves records
Aircraft Type: Wellington
Serial number: LN 513
Radio call sign:
Unit: ATTD 40 SQN RAF

Summary:

Wellington LN513 took off from Foggia Main base, Italy, at 0101 hours on 17th
February 1944 to bomb the shipping at San Stefano. The aircraft which was last plotted
14 miles from base at 0548 hours, height 6000 feet, did not return from the mission.

Crew:

RAAF 420575 Flt Sgt A F Mason, Captain (Pilot)
RAF FO Keighley, J C (Navigator)
RAAF 425536 Flt Sgt E E McGilvery, (Wireless Operator Air)
RAF Sgt E S Sayer, (Air Bomber)
RAF Sgt A Bayliss, (Air Gunner)

It was later established that the aircraft had crashed into a hillside, and the aircraft burnt
out and completely destroyed with all the crew killed. They are buried in the Bari War
Cemetery, Italy. The cemetery is on the outskirts of Bari. Locality Carbonara.

Cheers

Geoff

 

Hi Geoff,

Sorry for the confusion. My comment referred to the route flown by Collers' uncle's crew on 24/25 May 1944. Target was Valmontone.

Regards,

Dave

 

Alien -
Valmontone was the objective of the Anzio force to halt the two German armies fleeing the Liri Valley - instead Gen Clark directed his troops to liberate ROME and thus the war went on and on

Cheers

 

Hi Geoff,

Sorry for the confusion. My comment referred to the route flown by Collers' uncle's crew on 24/25 May 1944. Target was Valmontone.

Regards,

Dave
Ok Dave.

Misread it!

Cheers

Geoff

 

I think I previously provided this info on Coller's thread, but searching the Australian War Memorial collection (Home | Australian War Memorial) for the word 'Foggia' provides 135 photos of the town itself in late 1943 plus the airfield and snow covered vehicles etc in early 1944.

Just some background to show conditions around the time in question and what the town / airfield complex looked like.

cheers and well done to Drew et al for the work done on this query


Dave


PS - this shot provides an overhead view of the airfield when it was being attacked prior to the landings

Permalink: MED1570 | Australian War Memorial

Foggia, Italy. 9 June 1943. Bombs straddled the southern end of the hangar area and two probable hits were scored on hangars when US Army Air Force Consolidated B-24 Liberator bomber aircraft attacked the airfield. Several hits were scored on smaller buildings. Bombs are bursting all round the buildings (top) and on the landing ground while (bottom right) smoke from a petrol fire drifts over the airfield. Day after day the Allied Air Forces operating from the north coast of Africa are carrying the war deeper into Axis territory in Europe. Bombers are striking from the island strongholds of Sardinia, Sicily and Pantellaria to the industrial plants, ports and air bases in northern Italy.

 

“Viewers of the thread should follow the HE237 'Lyon' Wellington details”


The casualty file for Flying Officer Lyon RAAF 415478 shows that the sole survivor - RAAF 427511 Sgt F W Jones (Air Gunner) – suffered injuries to his back.

He was returned to Australia where his story of survival made it into the newspapers (attached), he was married in December 1944 and discharged from the RAAF in March 1945.

 

Just noticed something odd. The Lyon crew were moved from Foggia Civil Cemetary to Bari in graves:

Lyon X. B. 16
Reader XV. B. 17
Pillinger X. B. 18
Knight X. B. 19

Reader looks at first like a scanning error, but there is another named burial in X.B.17. chances of two scan errors are low. Did they put Reader in the wrong plot? Coincidentally same number, 17.

(footnote: There were, especially WW1 records, a few % (1-3) of scanning errors in grave references. CWGC seem to have now corrected many. Possible due to the photographic project - I would guess.

 

Just noticed something odd. The Lyon crew were moved from Foggia Civil Cemetary to Bari in graves:

Lyon X. B. 16
Reader XV. B. 17
Pillinger X. B. 18
Knight X. B. 19

Reader looks at first like a scanning error, but there is another named burial in X.B.17. chances of two scan errors are low. Did they put Reader in the wrong plot? Coincidentally same number, 17.

(footnote: There were, especially WW1 records, a few % (1-3) of scanning errors in grave references. CWGC seem to have now corrected many. Possible due to the photographic project - I would guess.


Interesting Geoff!

I do not have the headstones from Bari where there are 39 RAAF lads buried or I could check that the positioning is true or not.


Cheers

Geoff

 

There is no doubt that Foggia Main was on the site of the pre-war Gino Lisa airport a short distance south-west from the centre of Foggia Town. This has now been developed as the modern Gino Lisa Airport for Foggia. This was clearly evident when Alieneyes compared the wartime aerial shot of Foggia Main (courtesy of DaveB ) with a current Google map.

Bearing in mind HE237 was reported (40 Sqn Orb Appendix AIR27/416) as losing starboard engine revs on the day prior to the crash and with both engines pulling maximum revs on take-off a sudden loss of power on the starboard side would have slewed the plane to starboard and downward in that direction exactly as per the report.

The crash site is approximately 5,000 ft from the end of the runway and 10,000 ft from the airstrip complex.

The sketch of the crash site in the report shows the road in question as the Foggia-Naples road. Comparing this with a modern day Google image it is possible to estimate the probable proximity of the crash area. (See attached image.)

The crew who flew the aircraft the day before must have got down on their knees and to give hearty thanks they didn't take it up again on that sad and fateful day!

Hope this is of interest.

Collers

 

Good stuff, Collers.

Corso Giuseppe Garibaldi is the city end of the Via Napoli, via the Via Vittime Civili. I don't know if the latter name was in use in the war; perhaps not.

The incident plan has a large building on the north side of the road labelled '304 HQ'. The only two units with war diaries covering Feb 44 are 304 Army Recovery Coy REME and 304 Coy RASC. Assuming it's one of these, even if they don't mention the incident they may give a grid reference for their HQ to pin the location down. Of course, the 212 A Tps Coy war diary refers to a 104 CRE, so it could be a mistake on the plan.

 

I'm following this thread with great interest --- but still puzzled: the additional evidence given by Capt. Loftus-Brigham seems to describe the Wellington crossing the road roughly from the Naples direction and hitting the workshop buildings,losing part of a wing and finally impacting 40yds further on in the field. Could the pilot have taken off ok and then engine problem started to occur
(pilot not being familiar with this particular plane's history) and decided the best action was to return to Foggia Main, perhaps following the SP105 which leads to the southern end of the runway (assuming a similar alignment in 1944).
Somewhere on the site I read a comment that a Wellington could fly well on one engine ; could he have been putting extra power into the port engine to compensate for the lack of performance from the starboard engine and being low if/when engine may have cut out altogether. Could this cause a sudden swing to starboard, and the loss of the bit of power it had been giving make the plane lose height ?
Or could he have been making a deliberate effort to land in the (presumably) open field?
(My flying experience was gained from Biggles books; make allowances)

 

Somewhere on the site I read a comment that a Wellington could fly well on one engine ; could he have been putting extra power into the port engine to compensate for the lack of performance from the starboard engine and being low if/when engine may have cut out altogether. Could this cause a sudden swing to starboard, and the loss of the bit of power it had been giving make the plane lose height ?


It is possible but the only survivor of the crew stated that following takeoff the aircraft failed to gain height and began to swing to starboard. If we take the takeoff speed at approximately 90 mph, or even less depending on the weight of the bombload, and the crash half a mile from the end of the runway we are talking about mere seconds. That the pilot had the presence of mind to attempt to jettison the bombload speaks volumes as to his skill. I do not believe the aircraft gained any great height or even Sgt Jones would not have survived the impact.

And while it's true a Wellington could fly on one engine that was a best case scenario where the aircraft was already in the air and flying level, not powering up to gain height on takeoff.

Regards,

Dave

 

And Dave, with a full bomb and fuel load.