Richard III

Discussion in 'The Barracks' started by geoff501, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Wonder if Leicester City Council will rename the Car park - and charge extra for the Richard III Bay?
     
  2. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    "Experts from the University of Leicester said DNA from the skeleton matches that of a descendant of Richard III's family."

    Surely the DNA only proves that the skeleton and persons currently living share the same lineage. So how does the DNA confirm that it is actually R III?

    In itself it doesn't does it. The match is the mtDNA which shows they share the same maternal line. But presumably many thousands of others could share the same maternal line as well, as it did not start with Richard III's mother obviously.

    However, then there's the other evidence to be taken into account. The other DNA tests show that the skeleton is the correct sex and roughly the same age group as Richard III.

    The radio carbon dating puts the body in the correct time period.

    Historical evidence points to the right burial place.

    Then there's the nature of the wounds inflicted on the body and the unusual nature of the burial itself.

    But, I suspect, no one would be claiming it so strongly if it wasn't for the scoliosis.

    So what they have is a man with a hunchback in his late twenty's or early thirty's who died a violent death in or near Leicester in the latter half of the 15 century, who shares a maternal line with Richard III and was hurriedly buried in the Choir area of the Greyfriars.

    Didn't they say the DNA tests on the male line haven't been completed yet? Perhaps that's the clincher if the results are conclusive?
     
  3. -tmm-

    -tmm- Senior Member

    Did anyone watch the C4 documentary last night? I'm sure C4 originally were going down the route of 'crazy woman digs up car park lol' and then suddenly had to come up with something semi-serious as it turned out she may be right all along.

    The woman was an absolute mentalist though. She reminded me of these people you read about who get engaged/married to violent criminals who are awaiting execution on death row. I bet she sleeps next to the reconstructed head at night. You could tell at the end she so wanted to give it a kiss! :lol:
     
  4. bamboo43

    bamboo43 Very Senior Member Patron

    Did anyone watch the C4 documentary last night? I'm sure C4 originally were going down the route of 'crazy woman digs up car park lol' and then suddenly had to come up with something semi-serious as it turned out she may be right all along.

    The woman was an absolute mentalist though. She reminded me of these people you read about who get engaged/married to violent criminals who are awaiting execution on death row. I bet she sleeps next to the reconstructed head at night. You could tell at the end she so wanted to give it a kiss! :lol:

    I agree totally. I guess ultimately she is the main driver for finding the skeleton, but her emotional outbursts spoiled what was a very interesting program and an amazing historical discovery.
     
  5. idler

    idler GeneralList

    The woman was an absolute mentalist though.

    The worrying thing is that she's probably no more obsessive than some of us are. Is that what we look like to normal people?

    Personally, I would have liked to see a bit more on the research leading up to the identification of the car park, but it was a change from the 'earnest academic' documentary.
     
  6. Sheldrake

    Sheldrake All over the place.... Patron

    Thanks to the passion of the Richard III society that his body has been exhumed. But he is also one of the few battle casualties from a medieval battle to be identified. Thanks to the Battlefields Trust and Leicester County Council and the Heritage Lottery fund, we have also found where he was probably killed. Its a battlefield marked by the largest collection of Pre C17th cannonballs found on a battlefield in Europe.

    Story here http://www.battlefieldstrust.com/cms/upload/docs/293/battlefieldmagazine_bosworth.pdf

    The evidence emerging from the rediscovered battlefield suggests that like the myth of his humped back, other tales may also have a grounding in truth. A silver boar badge (the equivalent of a cap badge of his retainers) was found close to the only patch of bog in the area. His injuries are consistent with the story of him being unhorsed and dispatched by Welsh footsoldiers.

    The story of the battle has something to say about whether Richard was a the ultimate wicked uncle or the vikctiom of Tudor propaganda. Despite Richard's undoubted prowess as a soldier, and having the greater numbers and the Royal artillery train he lost to an invader with puny force. This together with the defection of Lord Stanley and his army to Henry despite Richard's threat to execute Thomas Stanley who he held as a hostage. says a lot abotu the willingess or otherwise of people to die for him and their willingness to expose their families to get rid of him..
     
  7. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Didn't they say the DNA tests on the male line haven't been completed yet? Perhaps that's the clincher if the results are conclusive?

    This is difficult isn't it since nuclear DNA is derived from both parents but mDNA is passed relatively unchanged through the female line? mDNA is usually recovered with higher counts also.

    On one report a second descendant, who wished not to be named, was also said to be a probable match. Wonder who he/she is? Don't think this was mentioned in the program.
     
  8. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    In my e-mail just now !
     

    Attached Files:

    dbf likes this.
  9. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    In my e-mail just now !
    I also got it through a FB friend. Pretty good, I think.
     
  10. PsyWar.Org

    PsyWar.Org Archive monkey

    This is difficult isn't it since nuclear DNA is derived from both parents but mDNA is passed relatively unchanged through the female line? mDNA is usually recovered with higher counts also.

    On one report a second descendant, who wished not to be named, was also said to be a probable match. Wonder who he/she is? Don't think this was mentioned in the program.


    I think so Geoff, the results probably being either inconclusive or a possible link. But can't say I fully understand what that actually means.

    The other interesting point mentioned in the press conference was that the two descendants of the maternal line are both last of their generation.
     
  11. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    I think so Geoff, the results probably being either inconclusive or a possible link. But can't say I fully understand what that actually means.

    Your DNA is a mix of your parents, so for example you only have 1/4 of the DNA of your 4 grandparents. Over 17 generations, it get very diluted, so only mDNA is a possible as a way to trace way back.

    The other interesting point mentioned in the press conference was that the two descendants of the maternal line are both last of their generation.
    Seems to be a lot of luck in this case. They could also have dug up the car park for years and found nothing. Bones on the first trench was lucky.
    It's odd how the nutters think this will change history though. it's only bones.
     
  12. Owen

    Owen -- --- -.. MOD

    Does anyone know if there are plans to publish the scientific info & processes used in the ID ?
     
  13. Cee

    Cee Senior Member Patron

  14. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    Does anyone know if there are plans to publish the scientific info & processes used in the ID ?

    Could try contacting here. They replied to my email a few months back on a question.

    Richard III Society  |  HOME
     
  15. canuck

    canuck Closed Account

    The Canadian Connection

    I haven't see any mention of this so far, but I may have missed it?

    Canadian's DNA helps ID King Richard III's bones - CBC

    Two Canadian links to discovery of Richard III - The Globe and Mail


    Regards ...

    First WW1, then WW2, on to 2013 and a Canuck taking over a beleaguered Bank of England. Now you need our blood to figure out who your Kings are.
    It's terrifying to think what would happen to you lot if the land of the Maple Leaf wasn't around to bail you out of these situations!:rolleyes:;)
     
  16. TTH

    TTH Senior Member

    Canadian officer: Can you and your band play 'The Maple Leaf Forever'?
    Gunner Spike Milligan: No, after an hour our arms get tired.
     
  17. Rav4

    Rav4 Senior Member

    First WW1, then WW2, on to 2013 and a Canuck taking over a beleaguered Bank of England. Now you need our blood to figure out who your Kings are.
    It's terrifying to think what would happen to you lot if the land of the Maple Leaf wasn't around to bail you out of these situations!:rolleyes:;)

    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  18. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Vancouver Sun - Sports Blog:

    The Kings apologize for harmless tweet; Canuck fans need to develop thicker skin.

    Tempted to say put some backbone into it!
     
  19. Ron Goldstein

    Ron Goldstein WW2 Veteran WW2 Veteran

    Not surprised to get this learned discussion on the Letters page of today's Times.

    I liked the one from a top osteopath on on the distinction between hunchback & scoliosis.

    You learn something new every day :)

    Ron

    ps
    It didn't take long for all the King in the car-park jokes to emerge !
    The best Richard III Twitter jokes | Radio Times

    My favourite ?...... Richard III wont be the last bloke to have his face reconstructed after leaving a pub car park in leicester
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    This has given the long time search for King Alfred in Winchester a new keeness they have searched on and off since 1905. It is thought he is in or around St Bart's Church, Hyde just outside the North Gate - they too have a DNA sample - from Eadgyth in Magdeburg Germany. I know the area and I have been underground there - my father kept small quantities of explosives and his detonator room under the building (below) where he had his office for HMG. The churchyard is behind this building. Thinking about it - I attended a wedding at the church, must have been a good one - memory bit cloudy!




    Alfred.jpg


    http://www.genealogyinengland.com/Information/winchestermonarchs.htm
     

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