Richard III

Discussion in 'The Barracks' started by geoff501, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

  2. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    Hmm looks like we'll have a Royal Funeral then as an Olympics follow up event !

    Bring on Shakespeare, Luvvies etc re-enactments quick Coe will be setting up RIBORG (Richard Burial Organization)
  3. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

  4. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    although us cockney's are having a chuckle....

    "richard the third found in car park"....

    I've seen so many!

    great and exciting news, though :D
  5. Rich Payne

    Rich Payne Rivet Counter Patron 1940 Obsessive

    Would this be a suitable moment to consign the usurper's descendents to The Tower ?

    Is this modern politics or simply updating five-hundred year old politics ?:unsure:
  6. Wills

    Wills Very Senior Member

    Now is the winter of our discontent
    Made glorious summer by this son of York;
    And all the clouds that loured upon our house
    In the deep bosom of the ocean (car park) buried.
    Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths,
    Our stern alarums changed to merry meetings,
    Our dreadful marches to delightful measures and
    parking fines.
  7. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    A much-misunderstood King I feel.
    I was born in York, so I'm biased; but I can't help the feeling that the Tudors won that particular PR battle quite spectacularly.

    There was a brilliant plaque in Leicester which commemorates where the town cheered out Richard on his way to Bosworth, and then cheered in Henry afterwards.
    That's a mercantile town with an eye on the main chance that is.
    "Come on the Winners!" (hmmm, that looks a bit odd written down.)

    And the 'Richards' reference has surely been causing sniggering nationwide.
  8. NickFenton

    NickFenton Well-Known Member

    I'm biased also as l was born in York as well.

    Perhaps we should start a War of the Roses thread on here and sort out who really won, because l certainly know the answer and the historians got it so wrong.

    Thats if it has even been concluded?
  9. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Good idea, Nick.
    And if we 'discuss' it properly, we can book a location for the inevitable punch-up well in advance too. :unsure:
  10. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

    My lots from t'other side of The Pennines (if you ignore the Irish bits), but alway had a soft spot for him, he got a very bad deal from Shakespeare I think.
    A punch ups OK by me. Any particular car park?
  11. CL1

    CL1 116th LAA and 92nd (Loyals) LAA,Royal Artillery Patron

    My lots from t'other side of The Pennines (if you ignore the Irish bits), but alway had a soft spot for him, he got a very bad deal from Shakespeare I think.
    A punch ups OK by me. Any particular car park?

    Well I will be there
    as an unbiased observer you understand

    I will have as stand by a number Boudicca followers just in case things turn nasty.( a tad out of era but fair me thinks)
  12. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    I was indeed thinking car-parks, though the last fight I saw relating to Rose colours was in a beer tent.
    (It is quite magnificent, to my eye, that people are still prepared to go fists-up over this issue.)

    Maybe a beer tent in a car park?

    Nice neutral selection here.
    Good pubs in the area too, let's do them first.

    (Clive - mind how you pronounce Boadicea, that can get heated too... but I've not seen or engaged in pugilism over it.)
  13. bexley84

    bexley84 Well-Known Member

    Given that most of my antecedents come from neither White or Red Rose country (more like Green Shamrock country, although I now remember my maternal grand mother was born in the 1880s in Hulme), I must apologise for butting into the debate, but a point on one of the posts above:

    - I think there was another usurper after 1485 to take into account, think 18th century, think Han(n)over...and 1688...

    - also, now that my neighbours who live in the big house up on the hill, have started a discussion about the well known parlour game of creating "an heir and a spare", I would love to see the possibility of a Richard 4 coming onto the agenda/future horizon..can only live in hope. Is anyone else sick of all these Gs, Es and Ws, with an occasional C ?

    Rehabilitate the reputation of Richard III, I say.
  14. Old Git

    Old Git Harmless Curmudgeon

    For years they said the Tudor sponsored Shakespeare blackened the name of Richard III even to the extent of making him a decrepit hunchback when he wasn't. Today they say they've found a skeleton which quite obviously suffered from scoliosis. Are they now saying the Shakespeare told the truth and he was a decrepit hunchback?

    Furthermore, whilst it has become commonplace in recent years to claim that it was in fact, Henry Tudor who mudered the princes in the Tower the argument just doesn't hold water.

    Firstly Richard was appointed Lord Protector of the elder boy and his Kingdom. However, he abducted the older boy when the boy was on his way to London to be crowned . The younger brother and his mother fled to the sanctuary of Westminster Abbey. Richard put her under increasing pressure to bring him to him so he could keep his older brother company. His mother resisted as much as she could but in the end relented. As soon as Richard had both boys in his 'care' he had their fathers marriage declared invalid, so bastardising the boys and ending their claim to the throne. He then makes himself regent and it is not long after this that we lose track of the boys.

    Henry Tudor had been hiding out in Brittany for about 14 years and never able, though not for want of trying, to muster enough support to take the crown of England. Suddenly everything changes, he is bethrothed to Elizabeth of York (who is a niece of Richard III and older sister to the two Princes) and has got the backing of the Duke of Brittany. Why would all this suddenly change. Notwistanding the fact that if the boys were dead then Elizabeth of York had more claim to the throne then Richard did. Why would a good daughter of York even contemplate marrying a Lancastrian and essentially the last Lancastrian standing who had a claim to the throne. It can only be explained by the fact that she was acting out of revenge. Richard had seized the throne and killed her brothers. But in this she was not acting alone because when Richard took the field at Bosworth some of his major Yorkist supporters failed to support him. Whilst they would not/could not fight for a Lancastrian they did nothing to stop that Lancastrain defeating Richard and taking the throne. What Richard had done was against all that was holy and lawful and everyone knew it, he had to go and if that meant getting a Lancastrian in to do it then so be it! Richard the Turd deserved his name, he was a bad man who mudered his own nephews to gain the throne.

    And just a note here, Henry Tudor and Elizabeth of York had a very happy and contented marriage which lasted 18 years until Elizabeth died in 1503. When she died he was so heart-broken he locked himself away for quite some time and would see no one. In spite of the fact that he was a well known miser he laid on a splendid funeral for her and when he died, still a widower, he was laid next to her. Would they have had such a wonderful marriage if he had killed her two younger brother as soon as he got the throne? It was Richard wot did it and he paid the price!

    Interestingly enough the Dublin lot were a bunch of Yorkists who even went so far as dressing up a boy as one of the Prince's and crowning him King in Dublin. His name was Lambert Simnel and when he came to England in an attempt to raise a Yorkist army against Henery Tudor he was defeated by Henry and taken prisoner. Henry then put him to work as a spit turner in the Royal kitchens. Didn't kill him but gave him a job! Years later Kildare (the Dublin man behind this madness) was finally persuaded to come to London to meet with the King and come to terms. At the banquet Henry VII ensured that Kildare's server was none other than the boy, Lambert Simnel. I bet that made for an uncomfortable meal. Do you think they said hello to him, or did they just try to politely ignore him!

    The question is, now that they've dug him up where do the lay him to rest again? Somewhere in Leicester or bring him south to the Abbey? Will the present Royal Family have a say in this? I'm pretty sure they're following it all with interest!
  15. PZULBA

    PZULBA Member

    My Dad and the 5 preceding generations were born in Lancashire (some only just!!!)

    Fortunately I was born in Yorkshire - I used to tease him that there must have been some sheep thieves or similar way back then, and that I'm the first one allowed back!!!

    He got his revenge though as despite there being a Duke of York School in Nairobi I was sent to the Prince of Wales and thus I'm an Old Cambrian

    However I do have an aversion to the Welsh and do enjoy reminding them that the Prince of Wales was a German!!!

    PZULBA - Out of Africa (Retired)
  16. von Poop

    von Poop Adaministrator Admin

    Leicester Uni has a good page on the discovery:
    Search for Richard III enters new phase: “momentous discovery has potential to rewrite history” — University of Leicester

    And a sub-site on the Greyfriars dig as a whole:
    The Greyfriars Project — University of Leicester

    Even if it proves not to be his Maj., I've a personal interest in battle damage to individuals from 'Medieval' weaponry, blades in particular, so I'm actually quite intrigued to see what they say in detail about the wounds.
    If nothing else, I'm sure they'll be well-reported, and there really isn't that much out there on such things. ('Blood Red Roses' is good though. If this stuff floats yer boat :unsure:)

    A couple of images which will always make me go 'hmmmm':


    (Apologies for no sources on them - I've got a folder on a hard-drive and a terrible memory. Both Googlable, think the first is in the book.)
  17. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

  18. geoff501

    geoff501 Achtung Feind hört mit

  19. At Home Dad (Returning)

    At Home Dad (Returning) Well-Known Member

    so, as we come to the wind down of Operation Herrick,
    which has cost so many British lives, it turns out that the
    last English King has been found in the lost garden of Robert Herrick...
  20. Jedburgh22

    Jedburgh22 Very Senior Member

    lost garden of Robert Herrick...
    Robert Herrick - Cavalier Poet and sensualist who was a vicar - exiled to the West Country by the Roundheads . . . . . hmm At Home dad must be well educated with good taste in Poetry:D

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